Issues with Alcohol at Larps

nzLARPS
#121

…excuse me while I go pound my head against the nearest solid object. If this isn’t a glaring signal we need to start hitting people over the head with a clue-by-four I really don’t know what else can be said.

The most frustrating thing about injuries and incidents related to alcohol is that they are all completely preventable!

We’re playing a proverbial game of Russian Roulette and it’s only a matter of time before someone breaks a bone, there’s questionable consent to a sexual encounter or someone dies. There has already been a serious head injury, as a community we have to agree to moderate ourselves and prevent the next totally preventable injury or incident.

So far we’ve agreed there is a problem and there has been a range of solutions and punishments presented. Are these things that people can accept being implimented across NZ LARP or should they be more a case-by-case, GM’s choice of tools?

#122

Wellington is an older, more settled crowd, who have got their drunken vomiting hookup phase out of their systems years ago. The culture is a little different as a result.[/quote]

Except that’s demonstrably not true. Half the regular crowd (maybe not at Kapcon, but certainly at events like 33AR) are now in their mid-twenties, and speaking only for myself, unsettled and occasionally immature. The community down here is different, yeah, but the intoxication and hook-ups are still present. Why they haven’t made an appearance I don’t know, but I’m very thankful for it.

#123

It sounds like it’s not just the alcohol that’s a problem. We used to have a very “everyone pitch in and help and be responsible for your own stuff” attitude a few years ago (and a few years before that i believe we didn’t, so obviously it’s time to go through this again).

Good grief, how pathetic. How hard is this?

If you’re picky, bring some damn food that you like with you. If you’re attending an event, HELP OUT. The reason it’s only $100 for a whole weekend is because they don’t hire cleaners and staff to clean up after you. If you’re drinking, keep it to a reasonable level, we’re here to larp, not pass out drunk. If someone tells you you’re being too loud, too aggressive or too skeezy, accept that they probably have a point and back off. Don’t have sex in places where other people have to deal with seeing, hearing or tripping over it, most people don’t want to see you bumping uglies, no matter how much fun you think it is.

/end rant

Of course, probably the people posting here aren’t the ones who need to hear that. >.<

PS: as a responsible drinker who can’t drink beer or wine, but pretty much only vodka, I don’t much like the idea of “beer and wine are ok, but not spirits”, but that’s a minor point at this stage.

#124

The relevant event organiser in the first instance. Its their event, and their decision on what to do about it. While NZLARPS has some powers under the Code of Conduct, event organisers have much greater freedom to act.[/quote]

Also, as outlined in the NZLarps Code of Conduct (at concerns@nzlarps.org

#125

[quote=“theotherphoenix”]It sounds like it’s not just the alcohol that’s a problem. We used to have a very “everyone pitch in and help and be responsible for your own stuff” attitude a few years ago (and a few years before that i believe we didn’t, so obviously it’s time to go through this again).

Good grief, how pathetic. How hard is this?

If you’re picky, bring some damn food that you like with you. If you’re attending an event, HELP OUT. The reason it’s only $100 for a whole weekend is because they don’t hire cleaners and staff to clean up after you. If you’re drinking, keep it to a reasonable level, we’re here to larp, not pass out drunk. If someone tells you you’re being too loud, too aggressive or too skeezy, accept that they probably have a point and back off. Don’t have sex in places where other people have to deal with seeing, hearing or tripping over it, most people don’t want to see you bumping uglies, no matter how much fun you think it is.

/end rant

Of course, probably the people posting here aren’t the ones who need to hear that. >.<

PS: as a responsible drinker who can’t drink beer or wine, but pretty much only vodka, I don’t much like the idea of “beer and wine are ok, but not spirits”, but that’s a minor point at this stage.[/quote]

Thou art awesome! Very well said, all of it.

#126

[quote=“IdiotSavant”]
Sure, a blanket ban is irritating, but bluntly if people can’t go without for a weekend, then they have a problem and need to see someone about it.[/quote]

But I don’t think it’s as black and white as that. Also a blanket ban has it’s own overheads. I’ve read mention of bag checks etc, which seems pretty major.

Drinking culture in New Zealand does tend to point towards binging. But hiding the booze away doesn’t make it better, more often then not it makes it worse. If people are going to get so drunk that they are in physical danger or be aggressive then to be honest they are likely to just bring stuff to drink any way. But instead of having an obvious bottle which can be easily identified, they will bring a coke bottle with rum in it or a pump bottle full of vodka.

The drinking hugely increases people’s bad behaviour, but the drinking can also make people mellow and giggly. I still think we need to identify, clearly and separately from the drinking, what the real issue is here. Is it the danger people pose to themselves and others? Is it aggressive behaviour or unwanted advances (which by the by are unacceptable drunk or not)? Or is it rowdy and loud people late at night?

If we can identify the unwanted behaviour and attitudes it will allow us to focus on these, rather than focusing on something as broad as “drinking”.

#127

At this point, I’m voting for

  • a two-year, ‘This Is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things’ blanket ban,
  • hot cocoa, biscuits, and cloyingly cheerful sing-alongs for late-night socialisers, and
  • letting people who can’t last one weekend out of fifty-two without getting arse-faced drunk… quietly find another place to be.

This is a weekend about larping - not alcohol poisoning.

After two years, think about bringing back social drinking.

shrug My $0.02

#128

[quote=“musicforwolves”][quote=“Nikki”]
The number of incidents over a weekend game of Teonn ranges between 2-6 from friends having to carry a drunken person to their bed to someone having sex in the crew room in front of everyone. I am absolutely terrified that someone is going to wander off into the Motu Moana woods drunk and either fall into a ditch and hurt themselves or fall off the cliffs and get killed. Drinking IS a massive problem.
[/quote]

I think the only adequate response to that is ‘Strewth’, because I’m so floored by that that I’ve temporarily forgotten all the swear words I know. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything even remotely approaching it in Wellington. Maybe that’s the thing: people here are afraid of getting booted out of the site, and we’ve threatened to do it before. It’s a lonely walk from Wainuiomata to Wellington central at 4 a.m.[/quote]

What Russ said. That is seriously appalling and certainly not something we’ve encountered here. If that is a common theme then by all means, ban the booze!

#129

[quote=“sophmelc”]The drinking hugely increases people’s bad behaviour, but the drinking can also make people mellow and giggly. I still think we need to identify, clearly and separately from the drinking, what the real issue is here. Is it the danger people pose to themselves and others? Is it aggressive behaviour or unwanted advances (which by the by are unacceptable drunk or not)? Or is it rowdy and loud people late at night?

If we can identify the unwanted behaviour and attitudes it will allow us to focus on these, rather than focusing on something as broad as “drinking”.[/quote]The incidents I heard about at Chimera are:

  • someone turning up at the Friday night round drunk and belligerent, and behaving badly in and out of character (things like ‘killing’ a lot of characters early in the game, including people who were very new to larping)
  • a group of people who stayed up past 5am, with one of the Red Hats concerned enough that he stayed up with them to make sure they didn’t accidentally kill themselves. When he gave up and told them all to go to bed, they moved to one of the bunking areas to continue the party
  • one of the drinkers falling out of their bunk and getting a serious head injury (maybe it would have happened without the alcohol, but I’m pretty sure that the liquor wasn’t helping)

Of these, the two individuals I know the names of were people who have been around the larp scene for a long time and one was well out of his 20s, so the issue definitely isn’t about new young people running a bit wild.

Also, with respect to Nikki’s comment about being told to piss off when telling people to go to bed/clean up - I totally respect the rights of a GM/organiser to ban someone for doing that. That’s just not cool.

#130

This from the man who had a violent tirade against how much snoring offends his ears? :wink:

[quote=“NickPitt”][quote=“musicforwolves”]

But to say that the solutions that are being proposed are already the status quo doesn’t seem entirely accurate.

[/quote]

This. I’d go further to say it was inaccurate. I’ve not seen any marshals, wardens or people being talked to about their behavior. Nor have I seen an active buddy system or clear rules set into place to let people know what will happen as a result of their drunkeness to the point of impairment.

Also agree with Sophie’s separation of the issues at hand. We’re really mostly concerned about people getting drunk to the point of being in physical danger and creating a burden on the game and other people.

Also, I think we need to distinguish the weekend long events from con-style events if we’re going to start spreading unrest. No one has turned up to a weekend game drunk that I’ve ever heard about. Anything to the contrary out there?[/quote]

That’s distressing that you haven’t seen “clear rules set into place to let people know what will happen as a result of their drunkeness to the point of impairment”, they were printed out, stuck up in your bunk room at Chimera as well as all the public spaces. When you registered to stay on site at Chimera, it was in your email - and you ticked a box that said you agreed to abide by those conditions. It was covered at the opening muster on the Friday night. Very distressing to me indeed if through all those channels, you don’t feel I adequately communicated with you about it.

I am disappointed at your perceptions that organisers’ legitimate concerns about incidents with alcohol is “spreading unrest”, and from some of your comments, it seems you feel somehow personally under attack. There has been a lot of work put in by a lot of people to build this hobby and this community up, and this is work that can be very easily undone by a growing reputation of being a party event with a bit of larping on the side, and even faster by a tragedy. With all due respect to you Nick, you have never organised a large scale event of any nature that I am aware of, so I’m not sure you can sympathise with the sort of terror and blame organisers feel when there are incidents at their events. Or the sort of crushing disappointment when you’ve gone to all the effort of spending a lot of your personal free time on organising a great weekend for people, only to find them ignoring it in favour of drinking. Or the helplessness when despite all your pleading, all your signs, all your explanations, people still choose to behave irresponsibly and not only put themselves at risk but detract from the event for others, even those who have made more sedate choices about what to do with their Chimera evenings.

I’m not against a drink. I’m not against anyone having a drink of mead, or a few beers, or a bourbon and coke after the flagship at Chimera. But it’s distressing that some people in this discussion are refusing to acknowledge the impact their actions are having their friends. We don’t want dry events. We want people to be able to enjoy a drink without putting themselves or others in danger, or disrupting the event for others (including the organisers). We need the community to step up, and take ownership of their own actions, and not need ‘wardens’. That’s all.

#131

I’m in favour of GMs doing it, with NZLARPS’ support. Firstly, because I have Very Firm Views about the role and powers on NZLARPS, and am very cautious about people who want to exceed those powers. Secondly, because it is event organisers who have the firsthand knowledge of the problems that arise in their game and who are best-placed to judge what to do about it.

We have a diversity of events, so we can try a diversity of approaches and see what works. What’s required at Teonn might not be required at 33AR, where the culture is different. That said, I’m in favour of GMs cooperating as well, both to identify what works and what doesn’t, and to some extent in policing. I’m fine e.g. with a GM saying “you’ve caused a small amount of trouble at my event. If you want to come back next year, you better make sure I don’t hear any similar reports from other events” to provide an incentive for them to drop out of the drinking dick culture. (I’m also fine with them saying “you’ve caused a lot of trouble at my event. I never want to see you again, and I’ll be telling other GMs, who will draw their own conclusions”).

NZLARPS should support GMs in these decisions. The constitution says that GMs get to decide who attends, and NZLARPS should back them absolutely on that.

NZLARPS could also use the power of the purse, and ask project managers about alcohol policies in the project approval stage. I’m cautious about such micromanagement-by-funding, but its an option. Fortunately it seems unnecessary, as most experienced project managers seem to be aware of the problem and want to do something about it.

In cases where it is applicable, NZLARPS could use the Code of Conduct when it comes into force. I am also cautious about this, because it is Hassle, and because I want the first use of it to be completely unambiguous so it will stick, but there have been clear cases mentioned in this thread where the Code could have been invoked if it had been in force at the time (I’m looking at you, unwelcomely amorous couple). It needs to be remembered however that the Code doesn’t cover general low-level dickishness, and that it has weak powers against non-members (which is about three quarters of our community). The only people NZLARPS can ban from games are (ejected former) members. Against non-members, all we can do is demand GMs manage risk… which means we might as well rely on them anyway.

#132

I was just discussing this whole thing with my flatmates. One doesn’t larp at all, the other does so but rarely. Both had the same opinion;

Why are we talking about punishing everyone, instead of just those causing the problems?

If someone is rude, belligerent, problem causing drunk, etc, the GM’s can give them a warning (or ban if necessary) and let other GM’s know. Again, that whole national roster of problem children would be useful here.

They do it again? Suspend them from X number of games, or weekend games, or just from yours.

Problem continues? Ban them from all NZLarps events for a year.

Shouldn’t we be more proactive about the problem causing individuals, instead of restricting the activities of everyone, good and bad alike? Could this not, or something akin to it, be added to the Charter so GM’s and Organiser’s feel they have more teeth to protect their games and players?

#133

Sorry, Anna, I didn’t mean to suggest at any point that you weren’t making the community’s preference for not drinking to excess clear. But reading over the emails I received coming into Chimera, all I saw was a request that we didn’t get drunk enough to impair our function the next day. There was only a mention that if we were disruptive it may impact our ability to stay on site next year. Nothing about being disallowed at future events, or forfeiting our registration cost, or actively incurring the wrath of the organisers and other attendees.

It’s sad, but… maybe it’s time to stop being so nice about this. If you drink to excess and inconvenience others, you will be removed from the venue as early as it is safe to do so. You won’t be allowed back. If that doesn’t get the message through to people, then they’re not the type of players you want at an event. They’re people who decided that their desire to get catalytic outweighed the enjoyment and peace of mind of the organisers, the GMs, their fellow players, and the people with medical training that got an hour’s sleep because of that person’s decision.

#134

Much better worded than I could have Monsieur Savant. Well said sir.

#135

[quote=“Stephanie”]The incidents I heard about at Chimera are:

  • someone turning up at the Friday night round drunk and belligerent, and behaving badly in and out of character (things like ‘killing’ a lot of characters early in the game, including people who were very new to larping)[/quote]

Was this a live-combat game? If so, that’s a serious problem.

#136

[quote=“Anna K”]
I am disappointed at your perceptions that organisers’ legitimate concerns about incidents with alcohol is “spreading unrest”, [/quote]

I don’t want to speak on behalf of anyone else, but it still isn’t clear to me what these concerns are exactly. I’ve asked a couple of times and so far I can’t see a reply.

Drinking is an issue. Yes. Examples of behaviour which is unacceptable have been given, but not all of this behaviour is unacceptable because of the drinking. It would be equally unacceptable with out.

Are people more likely to act badly when they’re drunk? Yes there is a lot of evidence to back this up. But the booze doesn’t force them to act that way. Now someone physically hurting themselves because they aren’t in control of their body’s responses is a symptom of being drunk. Being an asshole who is aggressive just means that person is an asshole, as well as being drunk.

I would really like to know which of these things we’re trying to combat here.

#137

This. GMs should be entirely able to tailor a policy to suit their community or event. We’ve done it before on topics like sexual harassment, violence and offensive content.

#138

[quote=“sophmelc”]Drinking is an issue. Yes. Examples of behaviour which is unacceptable have been given, but not all of this behaviour is unacceptable because of the drinking. It would be equally unacceptable with out.[/quote]The person who disrupted the Friday night game? I can’t imagine them doing that sober.
Falling out of a bunk - maybe, maybe not.
People being rowdy and disruptive? Without liquor keeping them going, they would likely have run out of steam and gone to bed.

Alcohol can exacerbate existing issues and kill rational decision making is the main issue. And I don’t think anyone likes having to hold someone’s hair while they vomit. Mellow drunks aren’t the problem, here.

#139

Since everybody’s chipping in here, I guess I’ll add my perspective.

I’ve been LARPing for just over a year, so you’ll get only recent history from me.

I’m definitely a ‘take it or leave it’ drinker. The dry Teonn out at Piha was no problem for me, equally so, I’ve enjoyed a few drinks by the fire with several members of this thread. I actually don’t mind which way the community goes on this in terms of “Dry or Not”. I’ll still show up to LARPs either way, because they’re fun!

That said, there have definitely been some pretty terrible things brought on in very recent events. Last Chimera alone, I witnessed a potential concussion, a very aggressive and unpleasant drunk who rocked up to the Friday game I was in, and heard the sound of sirens carrying away a girl who had drunk far too much and fallen from her bunk in the wee hours of the morning.

On the flip side to this, I was amongst a party of quite a few LARPers who, on the Saturday night, decided to romp down to the beach rather late. We had a great time, and while we were up pretty darn late, I know that almost all of the people I drank with made it to their games (The exception being the girl who was concussed). I was amongst those who didn’t register for a game on the Sunday morning, and so had a much needed sleep-in! That’s a crowd of people who had a good night, vs. two who over-indulged and suffered some pretty bad consequences.

The sentiment I’m reading in this thread seems split. Some favour stern consequences for rule-breakers, but no actual ban on alcohol, while the others appear to be pushing for a complete ban. I can definitely appreciate not punishing the many for the sins of the few. An outright ban is also the easiest solution though, and I appreciate that too.

I think the solution I like best is the one Vanya and the Crucible team seem to espouse - that of a controlled drinking area. I know most of us are responsible adults, and may feel a little hindered or condescended upon by being forced to drink inside a Tavern. That said, the frequency and magnitude of the accidents and issues of misconduct which are arising due to alcohol consumption are hard to ignore. We can’t have two rules - one for the ‘good drinkers’ and one for the bad, so this middle ground strikes me as a decent compromise. How this can be adopted by con events is more difficult to say.

At the end of the day, I LARP for two reasons - because it’s fun, and because I can help the people around me have fun. I’ve witnessed more than one instance of alcohol seriously hurting my ability to do either of those things. It’s not too late for a bit of control, but I will never personally tolerate somebody drunk in a LARP, and I’m happy to attend dry events if the controls don’t work.

#140

So the concern is that people are privileging their night of drinking over their LARPing experience, and over the ability of others to not be disturbed.

That’s fair. We won’t stomp out other people being disturbed entirely, because there are a hundred people in a small location, but people will respond more to being told to shut up if they’re sober. Stomping out the privileging of drinking over LARPing is a difficult thing, but I think it might be done by increasing or spelling out consequences, and not in a ‘you might get in trouble’ kind of way.

I find it interesting that the Wellingtonians are a bit more relaxed about it, but it seems to be because (as we’ve expressed) we don’t see stuff nearly as bad as what’s being described. If it is that bad, ban people from drinking. Without a doubt.
But this is a good reason for not making it a blanket policy across the whole of the NZ community. There are a lot of different people engaging with drink in a lot of different ways, and it seems a bit shortsighted to say ‘no drinking for anybody’. I felt that things were a bit out of control at Chimera this year, sure, but I also set up the room for my Hydra game this year while people were still drinking in it, and didn’t have a lick of trouble.