I just want to make it clear that I am not trying to actively advocate dry games. I enjoy a drink as much as the next person and after a long, hard day of GMing, being offered a beer by one of my players is not only appreciated but enjoyable. In that being said, as an organiser I would prefer a dry game to someone being seriously hurt and putting up with the heart ache of incidents happening at my game, every time.
It is not as simple as lets punish everyone for the mistakes of a few. The problem as I have said before is the culture around the drinking. For me the drinking is not the root of the problem, but it certainly makes it much more dangerous. The problem is, how do you go about changing the culture? It is a complex question.
It is hard to articulate the concerns we have as event organisers, but to me it comes down to respect for the game, the organisers and your fellow larpers. I feel that at the moment there is a distinct lack of respect and this makes it much, much harder to run a game.
The person who disrupted the Friday night game? I can’t imagine them doing that sober. [/quote]
Perhaps. But from the sounds of it they turned up that way and proceeded to be an ass. So it isn’t so much a problem with drinking at Chimera, but this person’s drinking problem. Perhaps they should have booted out the moment anyone realised what was happening? I don’t know, but banning drinking at larp events would still find people turning up drunk… letter of the law and all that.
[quote=“Stephanie”]
Falling out of a bunk - maybe, maybe not. [/quote]
Now to me this is a serious problem. The drinking likely caused this, and that is not cool. This person seriously harming themselves put undue pressure on the organizers. But it would be interesting to know if the person who fell out of the bunk had had previous times when drinking to excess had been noted. I don’t know who it was, but if this wasn’t the first time then the “ambulance at the bottom of the cliff” would have helped.
[quote=“Stephanie”]
People being rowdy and disruptive? Without liquor keeping them going, they would likely have run out of steam and gone to bed. [/quote]
Yeah, maybe. But drinking can equally make people sleepy. If rowdiness and staying up late are behaviors that aren’t welcome at the game then booze or no booze tell them to stop. Set a curfew, and anyone found to be ignoring it is asked to leave. Make sure people know that they are expected in their bunks by a certain time. Personally I think that would suck, but if that is a rule made clear when I sign up to a con/game then I will abide by it or not attend.
[quote=“Stephanie”]
Alcohol can exacerbate existing issues and kill rational decision making is the main issue. [/quote]
And this, I think, is it. People can be idiots when drunk, but it is the behaviour that we’re talking about, not just the drinking. I run games, and one day might even run a weekend game. When/if that time comes then the behaviour I expect will be regardless of whether you were drunk or not. Drinking is an excuse people use when they know they have done something wrong. “But I was drunk” does not fly for me.
If someone is loud and disruptive, rude to other players/crew/GMs, making unwanted advances or placing an unfair burden of care on others then quite simply they should be informed that their behaviour is not ok and if needed asked to leave. I don’t care if they were drunk when it happened or not.
[quote=“Nikki”]
It is not as simple as lets punish everyone for the mistakes of a few. The problem as I have said before is the culture around the drinking. For me the drinking is not the root of the problem, but it certainly makes it much more dangerous. The problem is, how do you go about changing the culture? It is a complex question. [/quote]
And to be honest it is a question that needs answering around NZ culture as a whole. I doubt we’ll find an answer here, but at least by opening up the discussion we are getting a lot of good ideas.
This is the very concerning, and to me, the most worrisome thing I’ve read on this thread.[/quote]
This, combined with Che’s story (I mean, what the heck?). When I first came to larping, the piss-up every night at the weekend games was mentioned frequently. This is outright scary, and it should scare EVERYONE. This is the culture we are presenting to the world, these are the kind of people we are attracting, this is the culture that gets reinforced.
Everyone, Nick. Across the scale. Seems the only ones who aren’t are the GMs and medics, the people who go to all the effort to make sure you’re safe and having fun.
Oh yes, yes they have. Don’t ask for specifics though, it wasn’t worth remembering.
Every briefing I’ve been to has included a mention of alcohol – the camp’s policy, the game’s policy, where to go so you don’t disturb others, what is expected of you if you decide to drink. If you haven’t heard it, you’re NOT LISTENING. And clearly, it is not being heeded.
People seem to be of the opinion that those who screw up and drink too much learn their lesson and don’t do it again. Fine, many people have. But the fact that the culture exists where they CAN screw up this badly is not on. The ambulance at the bottom of the cliff policies might be considered a good way to go in these situations, but the fact remains, and it MUST be acknowledged and addressed, that it only takes one person who hasn’t learned their lesson going too far to spoil a game for many, and sooner or later it will be a real ambulance and a real cliff.
The Red Hats acted as wardens at Chimera (hat’s off to you Robza, I certainly wasn’t going to do it - also, general applause for your post!), and there were still issues. Wardens can’t be everywhere, and trying to get people to bed after they’ve had a few is a nightmare.
I would very much like to hang around the fire and talk IC. Except that isn’t what happens. Two drinks, that is all it takes, two drinks to alter people’s behaviour. I watch it happen, and it is true of everyone. If you’re thinking right now that it’s not you, think again. I made an effort last Teonn, stuck around while the booze bottles got passed around and the wine was spilt. Very quickly I had to leave because of the drunkenness and the obnoxious ooc behaviour. The drinking culture combined with how light a sleeper I am is why I have never stayed on site at Chimera, and never will. Being cussed out and bitched at, even by mostly sober people, after having to crawl out of bed in the cold and very firmly shoo them away from the sleeping area at Jade Empire really did not make my night (after the late night area had been clearly pointed out in the briefing and the exact hall they were in being designated an absolute quiet zone).
Any and all suggestions that the problem be handled by the GMs I will tell you straight up I will ignore – Sabbat will become a dry event before I have to do more work just so other people can get sloshed. It should not be a problem the GMs have to deal with at all. It’s up to you. Yes, that’s right, YOU.
Don’t bring more than you’re going to drink yourself and don’t bring more than you know is your limit. Don’t know your limit? Go without. This should be basic common sense, and it is being ignored. If a better solution than those that have been suggested can’t be found, I’d back a blanket ban. I’d sooner see the drunks who can’t go a weekend without gone from the games than have the status quo continue.
But to say that the solutions that are being proposed are already the status quo doesn’t seem entirely accurate.
[/quote]
This. I’d go further to say it was inaccurate. I’ve not seen any marshals, wardens or people being talked to about their behavior. Nor have I seen an active buddy system or clear rules set into place to let people know what will happen as a result of their drunkeness to the point of impairment.
Also agree with Sophie’s separation of the issues at hand. We’re really mostly concerned about people getting drunk to the point of being in physical danger and creating a burden on the game and other people. Considering noise, late at night is often a by-product of LARPing, banning alcohol is not really logical step to addressing that.[/quote]
Couple of things, since I wasn’t clear.
I’m saying that the majority of suggestions are the status quo, or variations thereof. Granted, since I posted such there have been a number of good ideas coming out, so let’s keep that going. Still, I feel that most of our thoughts still surround the ‘here’s the rules, break them and xyz happens’.
I’m not a fan, at all, of imposing dry events. I absolutely am in the same camp as Nick P here, I love socialising with friends I rarely get to see, and especially love an IC drink between certain characters. My question is, how can we as a community avoid having to place such a ban? It’s not a ‘punish all for the sake of a few’, it’s a ‘make this issue go away before Something Really Bad happens’.
I don’t agree with the separation of these issues. Drinking is causing a problem. Drinking to the point that others’ participation in events is affected in a negative way is the problem. It matters not where the person imbibed, nor if they’re “just being an ass”. Respecting others is the issue here, and drinking has been exacerbating that problem. Someone is aggressive and acts in a disruptive non-IC way? I don’t care if they’re drunk or not, that’s just as much being disrespectful to other attendees.
It seems to me that at least a percentage of incidents are accidental (this wouldn’t work if its intentional), but I reckon limiting the amount of alcohol brought to games could help the culture at least. I don’t think you would have to be as extreme as bag checking, after all Larping already requires a buy in to abide by certain rules. But make it a rule to limit the amount brought onsite, this allows for a couple of drinks for people to wind down, still limiting the amount drunk. Ok it might not stop the problem, by I think it could a step in the right direction at least.
[quote=“IdiotSavant”][quote=“Stephanie”]The incidents I heard about at Chimera are:
someone turning up at the Friday night round drunk and belligerent, and behaving badly in and out of character (things like ‘killing’ a lot of characters early in the game, including people who were very new to larping)[/quote]
Was this a live-combat game? If so, that’s a serious problem.[/quote]
This is a serious problem regardless, who the hell shows up to a LARP drunk FFS.
I actually don’t understand at all the thought process behind it’s an event I paid lots of money to attend but you know I am gonna get so blitzed I waste not only my money but other peoples time/money.
I’m just going to weigh in against a couple of assumptions that I’m seeing in this thread:
[size=150]1. The GMs should be sorting this out…[/size]
Bollocks to that. The GMs already collect money, book venues, organize food and cooks, write and run games and a hundred other things. We can’t expect them to take on peoples drinking problems as well. If you’re drinking, you’re an adult. You may not have many years experience as an adult, but you’re responsible for your own actions.
[size=150]2. Events should have food for drunk people…[/size]
Bollocks to that. If you’re planning to drink, bring some food as well. Can’t afford both? Food is cheaper than booze and you’ll find you’re just as welcome at a table with some cheese and crackers as a bottle of rum.
[quote=“Derek”]I’m just going to weigh in against a couple of assumptions that I’m seeing in this thread:
[size=150]1. The GMs should be sorting this out…[/size]
Bollocks to that. The GMs already collect money, book venues, organize food and cooks, write and run games and a hundred other things. We can’t expect them to take on peoples drinking problems as well. If you’re drinking, you’re an adult. You may not have many years experience as an adult, but you’re responsible for your own actions.
[size=150]2. Events should have food for drunk people…[/size]
Bollocks to that. If you’re planning to drink, bring some food as well. Can’t afford both? Food is cheaper than booze and you’ll find you’re just as welcome at a table with some cheese and crackers as a bottle of rum.
I really don’t think that we as a group can push this onto the GMs. That is a complete and utter cop out![/quote]
Yes to all of this, perfectly said Derek
[quote=“Derek”]
I really don’t think that we as a group can push this onto the GMs. That is a complete and utter cop out![/quote]
I agree, wholeheartedly. I’m big enough to know when behaviour isn’t cool and I will call people on that. But I will also be honest, I’ve been lucky enough not to see it.
This isn’t something that a few people (GMs, wardens, “Red Hats”) should be responsible for. We should all call people on bad behavior and show that it isn’t ok in our community. Like someone (I think Steph) mentioned earlier, humans are herd animals. Enough of the herd goes one way and others will follow.
Further suggestions from the brainstorm of our flat (Myself, James, Caitlin and Keegan. James and Caitlin have larped multiple times in Auckland and Keegan and I are just starting out)
The tavern idea which is a mechanism to control drinking in Crucible
We all liked this idea. It adds something to the game in that you can have a bartender and have events and plot occurring as well as social drinking and character down time.
If a temp liquor licence was to be obtained, it may be possible to sell alcohol of low and mid strength and still keep it themed.
Notes on Temp liquor licence:
A couple of things we noted with that however were that it would be the organisers responsibility to ensure that a licenced bar manager was on duty during the sale of alcohol (How many LARPers HAVE a duty manager’s licence? How many of those would be willing to volunteer as a bartender for a set period of time?). It would also be the duty manager’s responsibility to ensure that no one under 18 was being served alcohol (unless by their parents/legal guardian). Neither Keegan nor I have our Duty Manager’s yet, but if we can arrange to do so, both of us would be happy to volunteer for this - we could also find a work around so that it is still IC for us.
Caitlin suggested that there could be a sign in where you show proof of age and you are tagged with either a named tag/badge/ribbon which you wear when you want to drink OR you have some sort of waterproof stamp on an inconspicuous part of your body. That way people don’t need to physically carry their ids all the time.
With the tavern idea, if people did want to bring their own alcohol, you could have them label it clearly and hand it over to whoever is looking after the tavern. Then when they went it, they’d be able to go “my usual thanks!” or "I’ll have a (insert name of thing here) and be served their own alcohol. This allows for the intake of alcohol to be monitored and if you’re drinking a bit fast, you can be told and slowed down at the point of ‘sale’.
Having to pay slightly extra for a ‘drinker’ but getting x amounts of drinks provided may be another way to monitor this. You can have several categories ($20 $30 $40). Then at the tavern you just give your name and drinks are crossed off as you use up your ‘tab’.
Curfews
having an enforced curfew (or at the very least, enforced of back to your own tents/bunks) at 1am or 2am. This works well if there is a tavern where all alcohol goes through. That way the tavern can be closed at 2am (or 1am… there was debate on what time the curfew should be) and while people may continue to socialize in their rooms/tents, they are unlikely to have alcohol unless they hide it.
As for people getting disrupted sleep because of people drinking and having messengers come in saying so and so is vomiting, Maybe if parents have children old enough to drink and that have put themselves down as drinkers, the parents get put in a separate area so that people who have no connection to the drinkers get an undisturbed night’s sleep (unless they’re participating in Night Watch events at Crucible, but that’s different. They sign up for that). Basically the only thing we could think of to try and minimise the effect of drinking on non drinkers was to have them sleeping in completely separate areas.
In short, the four of us agreed that drinking in excess is a problem, and something needs to be done about it. While punishing those who drink in excess may work in the long run (they may not do so again if they don’t want to be banned), it doesn’t stop it ruining or severely inconveniencing people at the time.
Other thing that’s nobody’s responsibility in particular but just something to add to the general list: people might take more advantage of water rather than booze if there were an easily accessible cooler or something in the designated late-night area. My experience this year was that I didn’t really know the layout of the place we were in, didn’t have a cup even if I knew where to get water easily, and so on. Again, my error entirely, but this seemed pretty endemic - I don’t think anybody was drinking much that was non-alcoholic. And by the time I was a few drinks in, I didn’t care that there wasn’t any water around, so it’s definitely something that drinkers would need to sort out first.
[quote=“Derek”]I’m just going to weigh in against a couple of assumptions that I’m seeing in this thread:
[size=150]1. The GMs should be sorting this out…[/size]
Bollocks to that. The GMs already collect money, book venues, organize food and cooks, write and run games and a hundred other things. We can’t expect them to take on peoples drinking problems as well. If you’re drinking, you’re an adult. You may not have many years experience as an adult, but you’re responsible for your own actions.
[size=150]2. Events should have food for drunk people…[/size]
Bollocks to that. If you’re planning to drink, bring some food as well. Can’t afford both? Food is cheaper than booze and you’ll find you’re just as welcome at a table with some cheese and crackers as a bottle of rum.
That is an example of the GM’s handling it: setting policies so that they don’t have to deal with the problem. And I fully support any GM who wants to adopt such policies, just as I support those who adopt less restrictive ones. Its your event, and your choice.
This is a serious problem regardless, who the hell shows up to a LARP drunk FFS.
I actually don’t understand at all the thought process behind it’s an event I paid lots of money to attend but you know I am gonna get so blitzed I waste not only my money but other peoples time/money.[/quote]
If its a theatre-style game, its merely bloody rude. But a drunk person swinging a sword? I want them gone, because they’re a risk to other people’s safety.
This is a serious problem regardless, who the hell shows up to a LARP drunk FFS.
I actually don’t understand at all the thought process behind it’s an event I paid lots of money to attend but you know I am gonna get so blitzed I waste not only my money but other peoples time/money.[/quote]
If its a theatre-style game, its merely bloody rude. But a drunk person swinging a sword? I want them gone, because they’re a risk to other people’s safety.[/quote]
You’re dead wrong. It’s a risk to others’ safety either way. Live combat just makes the threat more overt. Look at those who spoke out about the issue Friday of Chimera. For every one who’s said something publicly, guaranteed there are two or more others who were also affected but too threatened to speak.
You’re dead wrong. It’s a risk to others’ safety either way. Live combat just makes the threat more overt. Look at those who spoke out about the issue Friday of Chimera. For every one who’s said something publicly, guaranteed there are two or more others who were also affected but too threatened to speak.[/quote]
True. Different sorts of threats I guess. Either way, I’ll fully support Anna if she chooses to ban this person from future Chimeras.
Let’s all remember that NZLARPs is a community. We’re supposed to be working together to create great LARPs. The current drinking culture is not community minded; it’s selfish. We always say to new people that a golden rule of LARP is to make sure everyone else is having a great time and that making someone’s else’s experience better is the best reward you can get. When people are messing up venues, not turning up to games they’ve been given a part in, keeping people awake, etc, the golden rule is broken. So far most suggestion past a blanket ban have been to create more work and expenses for an event which considering comes with accommodation and catering is already rather inexpensive. It is admirable that the Crucible GMs are considering this but as a solution it is just pathetic. This is a community problem and if you’re a part of this community you should help solve it so don’t pass it off onto someone else. That’s how children deal with problems.
The fact that GMs and respected community members have been mouthed off to is disturbing. That is childishness at it’s worse. Someone has put in effort to run an event and they are being taken advantage of for a sake of a piss-up. That’s not a healthy attitude and it doesn’t encourage the creation of good games. Is an inexperienced GM going to run a game if the perception is they are expected to deal with that kind of bullshit? I would encourage people who have done this to take a few events off voluntarily.
I know I’m not blameless here so having taken the opportunity to reflect on how I’ve dealt with this problem I would support Catherine’s idea of a 2-year blanket ban. There’s a time and a place for drinking so let’s get back to making great events for everyone. Starve out this damaging culture then reconsider if we’re ready to give ourselves another chance. There’s nothing unfair about this. We have collectively failed to control the problem, so let’s collectively deal with it.
Ok, so after a quick skim it feels like emotions are getting a bit high (or at least it’s how it reads - tone can be hard to judge in text).
There have been some great suggestions here, and it seems that most people are in agreement with what constitutes undesirable behaviour when it comes to drinking at LARPs.
There have been some great suggestions on how to shore up the desired culture which allows for alcohol at games, for those of age to drink it, without it being an issue.
There have been some great suggestions on how to deal with people who disregard the above, and the penalties to these players.
So what next to iron out? I think there’s a solid enough collection of personal feelings about pro/anti drinking at LARPs, and examples of things that have gone wrong. Keen to take those on board but move forward to the firming up of the ‘master plan’ that can be rolled out in order to keep this discussion positive and results-based.
