Issues with Alcohol at Larps

nzLARPS
#1

Hello Everyone

As National President of NZLarps it’s my duty to raise an issue that has been growing over the last few years. People are getting drunk at NZLarps events, and this is becoming a problem. Something that the society and Organisers of individual events have started talking about

We understand people enjoy having a drink with friends and socialising after games or the game end for the night, and in some cases even before or during a game. And we know most people are responsible. But in the last few years we have seen a couple of people go to hospital with injuries or alcohol poisoning, and many other kind attendees having their time and game enjoyment impacted on . We have had people carried to bed and some close calls with people found passed out in dangerous positions. There have been numerous complaints on a range of drinking related matters: players not turning up to games, or turning up still drunk or hung over, or even just exhausted; Mess in playing areas that needs to be cleaned up or other people having to stay up and missing out on sleep themselves.

As a society and event organisers we care about our members, about their safety and about their enjoyment of events. We also have a level of responsibility, in that if we have a major problem it will impact on everyone.

To try to deal with this various methods have been used. We have been discussing drinking and personal responsibility at the start of every big event, areas have been put aside for late night socialising, to keep it safer and lessen impact on others. Plus things like the Code of Conduct at events has been posted in rooms.

But currently things seem to be getting worse and not better. We are contemplating whether a total ban on alcohol should be introduced. Or are there other options?

Of course these will affect everyone who attends an event with these in place. NZLarps can only make suggestions to game organisers, and the final decision on which, if any, of these new measures are included in a game will of course be up to the game organiser. However one of the guiding mandates of NZLarps is to provide support for larp in New Zealand, and we have had most games organisers coming to the committee for advice on what to do with this issue.

So the questions to you, as part of the larping community is:

How do you think this can best be dealt with? This can be from a society level with recommendations, or from actions individual events put in place.

#2

From what I know of overseas LARPs, they tend to either be incredible easygoing about drinking, or the equivalent of dry counties. You can either get smashed, or there’s no booze for anyone. We’ve perhaps tended towards the former in the past, but I’d prefer that than going towards the latter.

This is mostly because I don’t think a blanket ban actually serves anybody - it stigmatises it at best and at worst pushes it underground. If I can fill my water bottle with vodka for a plane ride you can be damn sure I’ll be able to do it at a convention where the stated purpose of the weekend is to have fun. If I were a serious drinker, that is. I haven’t noticed many issues myself (the first I really noticed were the few at Chimera this year, although I’ve heard mentions of some minor instances elsewhere). What are the current repercussions of getting smashed that might dissuade me from doing it? By which I mean, if I get wasted at Hydra on Saturday night and sleep in, or am too hungover to play, or get taken to the hospital, what’ll prevent me from doing it again (aside from shame, which is not something our pastime involves a lot of sometimes).

#3

I’ve got a longer poster that I will make, as this is an issue I have a lot of concerns about. I’ve been heavily involved in running larp events for the past seven years, and the growing number of ‘incidents’ is very distressing. But, in the mean time, two quick responses to the above:

This is where I think some of the contention arises from. In the case of Chimera (and I think, most major larp events), the stated purpose of the weekend is to have fun larping. Organisers and game masters put a lot of work into writing games, whether they are the theatreforms that constitute Chimera and Hydra, or the epic weekend games like Teonn or 33AR. It is understood that socialising is a component of the event, but the primary focus is, and always has been, the larping, not the drinking. I think it is profoundly disrespectful to conduct oneself in such a manner that at best ignores the work gone into creating the larping event, and at worst severely damages it - what if all the crew and/or players are too hungover to play in the morning? What if there is a serious accident involving alcohol that requires the event to stopped? Our primary activity is larping. If we wanted it to be drinking, that’s what the IRL pub is for.

The social repercussions are greater than shame - it requires you to live with the knowledge that you’ve seriously impacted the event for everyone that had to look after you (i.e. probably your own friends), as well as everyone that was relying you in IC or OOC. Further, project organisers in nzLARPS have the power to restrict access to their events (so long as it doesn’t contravene the human rights bill) so if they deem your behaviour disruptive or dangerous, you are likely to find yourself unwelcome back at the event, either temporarily or permanently.

#4

Why does alcohol have to be present to have a good time?
Seriously.
Is alcohol actually necessary for some people to have a good time?
Are there people out there that freak out when a ‘dry’ event is called?

#5

Oh, I don’t doubt this at all. I’m not much of a drinker myself, so I’m not really familiar with many of the incidents that have happened. But I do agree with you, we’re not here to drink. I think the difficulty is that many of the ideas that could be raised are really difficult to enforce. Drink limits are difficult. Unless we forked out for a breathalyser, so is intoxication. A drinking curfew might be easier, but there are ways for people to get around that.

I mean, yeah, I’m playing devil’s advocate here (the Vatican abolished the position, so I adopted it). But it seems like the only two options, really, are to go draconian or to ask people, yet again, to manage themselves responsibly. And the latter isn’t working.

I mean, if I were one of those people who felt they had to drink to excess otherwise I couldn’t have fun, the only thing that would stop me is a cocktail of penalties. I won’t be invited back, I’ll forfeit my registration fee for the games I didn’t play in, there are a few standbys to take my spot in the game I was really looking forward to, my membership will be suspended, I’ll be left on the side of the road in a strange city and not be allowed back in the venue (this last one works particularly well for the Wellington games, because we’re usually in the middle of nowhere). Select as necessary, mix, garnish with shame.

#6

I’m pretty comfortable with the idea of dry games if a GM team wishes it. There’s usually after-larps/social rp/etc… opportunities for drinks with mates before/after games.

If drinking is allowed at a game, I think it’d be pretty fair to remove a player from that game if they drink to excess, and either get themselves into trouble or inconveniences players/gms/the game in general. So if someone has too much to drink at night, the first order of business would to ensure they’re safe/looked after - but they’d also be advised that they’d be going home the next day, or as soon as it would be safe to do so. And no refund of their game fees would be provided. If the game is part of a campaign, or if it is a recurring convention, that person would only be allowed back at the GM team’s approval.

So the burden of responsibility to be a responsible drinker remains with the individual deciding to drink, but they do so knowing there are clear consequences for over-indulging. You run the risk of not only embarrassing yourself in front of your friends, but also risk leaving the game early, and possibly not being able to come back to the game at all.

#7

[quote=“tigger”]Why does alcohol have to be present to have a good time?
Seriously.
Is alcohol actually necessary for some people to have a good time?
Are there people out there that freak out when a ‘dry’ event is called?[/quote]

Based on the dry Teonn we had not so long ago, the game was missing something, at the end of the game it is really nice to be able to chill out with people over a beer or two and talk and socialise half in and half out of character. On the dry game people gathered for a short while and then instead of socialising went to bed because there was nothing to drink.

The game was still fun but that socialising is a a part of what makes a game fun for me, I like talking and chatting with people I only get to see at Larps and that was taken away.

I think the solution should be focussed on punishing those who screw up rather than punishing the community where the vast majority do not cause a problem. Individual responsibility is the key here. Perhaps a 2 or 3 game ban for over indulgence, so that people become aware that they are not just screwing up this game but they will miss out on other events. One or two advertised bans and people will see that it is not worth it. Currently bad behaviour is swept under the rug and kept quiet, I am not sure that helps dissuade others.

#8

Is it worth considering that your interest, then, is not primarily LARPing, and you would perhaps be more comfortable at a different type of hobby, one where ooc socializing is the main attraction?

That is a little harsh of me.

A less harsh comment might be that perhaps you might enjoy turning up early and socializing while you help set up, and then again during packdown after the event? We used to do after-larps as a matter of course, and perhaps you would like to volunteer to help host and promote such events at the LARPs you attend. that way you get your ooc socializing done, but outside of the game.

Or, you could promote something novel: in character evening entertainment that doesn’t involve alcohol (soft drinks, juice etc instead?), but is none-the-less an engaging place to go roleplay. Something like a bar or tavern with entertainment, IC brawls, boardgames and plot.

#9

While everyone has different takes on alcohol, and how important it is for having fun, the key thing here is that something has to change.

This isn’t a minor issue that Scott alone is concerned about. Excessive drinking is causing serious issues for numerous larp organisers, and there is extensive and vigorous debate on the private committee forums about how to deal with it.

As participants, the last thing we want is to make the job of organising larps and conventions even harder, when it’s already a huge task, and to put more work on the committee members. These people do a massive amount of unpaid work to put things on for our entertainment, and it would be disrespectful to not heed their concerted and reasonable concerns about this.

From our perspective on the ground, it may seem like drinking isn’t so big a deal. Sure, maybe one or two people over-indulge and get sick or endanger themselves, but that happens at parties too right? However the view is totally different from the top. The organisers get to deal with every alcohol-related issue at their event, on top of everything else they do. They see all of the most serious and dangerous results, and have to manage them. They also see the overall effect on their event of people being unable to participate in larp due to sickness or drunkenness, and of larpers having to be look after drunken friends late into the night and being exhausted the next day.

The organisers of our big events live in fear that someone will be seriously injured at an event they have organised, or worse, and of the effect that a real tragedy would have on that person, their family and friends, and on the community and the good reputation of the pastime. It’s not that uncommon for people to die for alcohol-related reasons in NZ, it happens at school afterballs and parties, it could happen to us.

Ultimately I don’t think this is about rules and enforcement, because as others have pointed out those can be circumvented. It’s about a culture shift, and us all taking on responsibility for taking this burden off the event organisers one way or another, by finding ways to help change things.

If we want to be able to continue drinking responsibly during out of character time at events, we need to change our culture in a way that will stop those few who drink to excess at larps. If we don’t engage with this issue and make this change ourselves, event organisers will have no choice but to attempt to implement bans.

So my question is: short of a ban, how can we stop those few people who overdo their drinking at larps? I think some people are over-drinking out of habit, or a misguided attempt to impress people with how much they drink or the alcohol content of what they drink (spirits being the culprit in the later case). This is worsened by the drinking taking place late at night, often without food, when people are already very tired. What can we do to stop this? Do we need a curfew? Better organised and more contained after-game social area? Some kind of self-enforced limit on how much people can drink?

Something has to change, that’s the key thing.

#10

I think what I proposed addresses the issue, and is simple enough, isn’t it?

If it’s clear that someone is drunk enough to be:

  • Sick
  • Violent
  • Obnoxiously loud/confrontational
  • Incapable of taking care of themselves
  • Too hungover to roleplay
  • Etc…

They’re sent home as soon as practical, with no chance of a refund, and may not return to future games unless the GM team agrees.

I’d be at the GM team’s discretion if someone met the above criteria. It’d be at the GM team’s discretion to give someone a warning first, rather than immediate ban. I trust all our GMs to know the difference between people being gregarious because it’s a fun social night, versus being obnoxiously drunk.

Every player would then know that if they chose to drink, they are responsible for drinking responsibly, or being sent home if they don’t.

This reinforces the culture shift you want to happen, as does continuing to talk about the issue, and ensuring there are social RP events (which I’m always happy to organise, and I"m sure others are too) and after-larps.

#11

One strategy I know has been discussed by some LARP organizers is to hold early morning activities with real world prizes up for grabs, the argument being this would encourage people to get an early night. Would need testing, and probably wouldn’t work as an intervention by itself, but might be promising. The competitions would have to be appealing to a wide number of people, though.

Perhaps a similar thing could be done in conjunction in the evenings, where people who would like to stay up can engage in roleplay orientated competitions or activities. Some examples that come to mind are storytelling, dancing, wrestling (and betting), music, and boardgames. Tasks that require some coordination and thinking ability, and provide a fun, social and relaxing atmosphere without requiring alcohol as a social lubricant.

There does need to be a cut of point, I feel, where the level of stimulation present at the game ceases, and people are helped to unwind and retire for the night.

All this gets difficult when people are self medicating with stimulants (caffeine) and depressants/anti-anxiety drugs (alcohol) to keep themselves functioning at what they believe is the required level throughout the game. Having a very set structure can help with this, so people know they aren’t going to be attacked, or provided with other highly stimulating plot towards the evening. This would be like the convention where we no longer have major plot events during meal times to ensure everyone can break for food, and extending it to make sure everyone can break for sleep. This is in direct contrast with horror games, which do the reverse. I feel we need to make sure that non-horror games don’t try to follow that same structure, as the anticipation of night-time activities could be impacting on peoples decision to self medicate with stimulants, and subsequently find themselves awake and wanting to do things late into the night.

One other strategy is to encourage LARPing to be a family event, and provide (professional) caretakers to look after children and give special attention on how to integrate youths into the game. Then make sure that every adult at the game is aware that the event is a family event and make sure they conduct themselves appropriately.

Lastly, I am a big fan of yellow and red cards for conduct and behaviour at LARPs. Yellow card issued as a warning, red as a timeout for 2 hours and until a game master comes to discuss what happened and whether and when to reintegrate you back into the game. Within such a system, drunkenness would qualify, in my opinion, as a red card offense.

#12

[quote=“amphigori”]If it’s clear that someone is drunk enough to be:

  • Sick
  • Violent
  • Obnoxiously loud/confrontational
  • Incapable of taking care of themselves
  • Too hungover to roleplay
  • Etc…

They’re sent home as soon as practical, with no chance of a refund, and may not return to future games unless the GM team agrees.[/quote]

I reckon that’s a reasonable course of action for organisers to take. However, it’s also the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

Once someone has already gotten so sick or misbehaved enough to be sent away, they’ve already spoiled the event not only for themselves but most likely for a number of others.

Knowing that this will be the result will stop some people, but may also cause them to cover up for each other. That’s what I mean about enforcing rules not being the whole solution - people find work-arounds to rules they don’t believe in.

I think we need a common understanding of how to drink in social times at larps, without over-drinking. How to stop people going too far, before it happens.

#13

Thank you Ryan for your articulate and spot on post :slight_smile:

We need community support for the measures that Jackie proposes. We need the community to stand with and support the organisers when they have to warn or ban. These are not faceless people we’ll be banning, they are our friends. They might be one of your friends. And when a mate gets too drunk, even by accident, and is imposed with consequences, we need to say to our friends, “Please learn from this”, not “That event organiser is such an unreasonable jerk.”

#14

I also think it’d be OK to say that the designated social area closes at a certain time, say 3am. If you want to hang out there, you do so with the understanding that you don’t get wasted, you clean after yourself, and by 3am the place is empty and tidy. And, as Anna said, there’d need to be community support on this as well - everyone pitching in. Which I can’t see being an issue. I’m sure you could get a few volunteer ‘wardens’ to put their hand up to give a half hour warning before the cut off time, get everyone to tidy up, and shut down the place at 3am.

Oh, and another expectation, which I’m sure is already in place, is that it is evident you’ve been drinking, you don’t get to RP. There’s no way I want anyone who has been drinking to be swinging at me with a larp sword. I think this’ll come into play at Crucible where people are going to be doing the night watch and doing more than just social RP during the hours people are currently socialising/drinking. So it’s another consideration.

But, again, even though I’m using lots of words now I think it’s actually pretty simple.

  • Set the parameters for what constitutes appropriate behaviour
  • Apply the appropriate rules/structure to help enforce this
  • Ensure the community understands and supports this
  • Roll it out at desired games

I think it’d be a dick move for people to get mad at GMs for disciplining someone who’s obviously broken a significant rule that’s designed to keep people from harm and ensure participants have as much fun as possible. I think as long as we’re having this discussion in the open, like this, and people understand the ‘why’ behind the enforcement, you’ll have a minimum of vitrol directed at GM teams.

#15

As someone who very regularly gets to deal with the effects of people getting drunk: being spat and sworn at, holding vomit bags, dodging vomit and other bodily fluids, dodging fists and keeping airways open because they can’t manage it themselves, I can say without a shred of doubt that looking after someone who is drunk is not fun. Also it is incredibly easy to permanent damage to yourself when you’re not drunk, it’s even easier when you’re drunk.

Personally I do not object to people having a couple of drinks, the problem is that people are not stopping at a couple of drinks. People are also not respecting the guidelines- at Chimera despite there being clear instructions that late night activities were to be at the middle hall to spare the people trying to sleep, people who were sent to bed from there instead went to Mowgli to keep drinking. The Red Hats at the hall were obliged to stay up for quite some time because people simply weren’t stopping drinking and going to bed and this really impacted on their ability to play in the games that they’d paid to attend on Sunday. It really wasn’t fair on them that they had to risk missing out on games that they’d been looking forward to because they’d had to stay up so late looking after people.

As Ryan stated a culture change is needed before someone ends up in a wheelchair or in a coffin. I am not exaggerating with how drastic this is. If someone is that drunk they pass out and then vomit, if they are not lying on their side they will breathe it back in and choke because the majority of the body’s more complicated responses, such as ‘I need to vomit, wake up so this can be done safely’ are subduded because of the alcohol. How long will it be before someone decides that they want to go for a midnight swim when people go to the beach and not come back? Or take a walk off the cliffs? Or decides to climb up onto the roof of one of the buildings? Or is found in a corner somewhere by a member of public who’s walking through the camp and doesn’t have good intentions?

What also has to be realised is if there’s a death at an event the police and the coroner’s court will get involved and there’s a risk of jail time if it’s decided that it’s the organiser’s fault.

Expecting GMs and organiser to assign or ask people to watch over others and make sure they don’t get plastered isn’t fair on them. Expecting people to provide food and/or water so that people can drink for longer is also not fair. We’re all adults here, surely some self control and responsibility can be exercised.

I can see three possible measures for controlling drinking:

Reduced time- alcohol can only be out for a certain time period, say until 2am. After that period it has to go back into the rooms or be confiscated and people switch to soft drinks and juices as substitutes. These don’t have to be boring, Rob and I ran two games that involved having a ‘bar’ and people seemed to have a lot of fun with the concoctions. This measure does require some policing but it’s doable.

Reduced amounts- People can only bring a certain amount of alcohol on site and once it’s gone, it’s gone. No supply runs to restock. For example, one six pack of beer, or one bottle of wine, or one bottle of spirits at a certain volume or under. This requires trust in the players to follow that ruling and it might have to be combined with random bag inspections and confiscating anything that’s over the limit, to be handed back after the game. A bit more policing but again doable.

Complete ban- If measures to curtail drinking and keep people safe don’t work a complete ban might have to be introduced or simply move games to camps that are already established as dry camps.

#16

If you cannot face a weekend without alcohol you are an alcoholic. Go talk to someone about it.

#17

Thanks for bringing this up :slight_smile:

#18

As a nondrinker, I find it hard to disagree with the complete ban of drinks at events.
I who avoid the drinking scene even at Teonn usually end up getting less sleep than someone who has drunk due to the fact that there are ‘alerts’ knocked on the door because X person’s daughter/son has drunk themselves to vomiting. It is not only inconsiderate but it made my chimera this year an absolute hell for sunday. I was passing out when walking because I kept having my sleep interrupted by messages. Its unfair to those who don’t drink when you are getting yourself put in a dangerous situation for the sake of appearing ‘cool’ to your friends.

I’d say a restriction on drinking would be sufficient - it would be too problematic to have a breath tester. I just hope people learn to practice some drinking caution before Crucible or I doubt I will be attending constantly if I cannot get any sleep.

On the saturday evening I probably only for 2 hours sleep. It affected my games that day for both Slash and Night at the museum. It was hard to focus and even with a small nap and near skipping lunch I found it hard to resume my day duties.

#19

[quote=“amphigori”]I think what I proposed addresses the issue, and is simple enough, isn’t it?

If it’s clear that someone is drunk enough to be:

  • Sick
  • Violent
  • Obnoxiously loud/confrontational
  • Incapable of taking care of themselves
  • Too hungover to roleplay
  • Etc…

They’re sent home as soon as practical, with no chance of a refund, and may not return to future games unless the GM team agrees.

I’d be at the GM team’s discretion if someone met the above criteria. It’d be at the GM team’s discretion to give someone a warning first, rather than immediate ban. I trust all our GMs to know the difference between people being gregarious because it’s a fun social night, versus being obnoxiously drunk.

Every player would then know that if they chose to drink, they are responsible for drinking responsibly, or being sent home if they don’t.

This reinforces the culture shift you want to happen, as does continuing to talk about the issue, and ensuring there are social RP events (which I’m always happy to organise, and I"m sure others are too) and after-larps.[/quote]

This. At the moment a blanket ban punishes people who have been responsibly drinking and doing their part to make sure it can still be a thing, to get at the people who have not.

I personally love having a drink while socializing. It’s relaxing, it’s a kick back, and it gives you a break from the intensity of LARPing for a few crucial hours.

If people cannot handle the morning after (I get really bad hangovers, very easily) then they should not attend the morning after. And saying “then they’re screwing over the GMs because of drinking” is like telling people they’re not allowed to sleep in if they want to, even after a dry night (people will still be up until 3am).

#20

Speaking on behalf of the Crucible team,

We are keeping a very close eye on this conversation. We are not considering a dry event, however, our current thoughts are restricting the drinking to the tavern where there will be food and oversight, with a blanket rule of no fighting if intoxicated. Also considering a curfew for drinking, though we need to be careful not to ruin the Night Watch side of the game. We are going to follow the idea of giving players other things to do, which will include early morning encounters and late night roleplaying encounters amongst others.

Concluding,
It will not be a dry event.
Drinking will be restricted to an area where food will be provided.
Blanket ban on drinking and fighting.

Speaking from a personal point of view,

I like to drink. Simple. I enjoy it and I want to drink socially at the end of a day of larping. Still, primarily, I am there to larp but drinking at night enhances the event for me as larping is an inherently social even. Now, we come to the difference of having a few social drinks and getting wasted. Coming out of Chimera, I completely agree that it is going over the top as it stands. The point stands that if you go too far, the consequences are on the organiser. If someone dies at my event, then I will be at the police station explaining what happened and why. As a game writer for Chimera, it is truly shit to set up for my game in the morning, talking about last year, to find the place dirty and in shambles and other people’s stuff all over. We do have some fantastic people who take care to clean up and groups like the Red Hats make a huge difference. But the fact that there is a mess means that some of the drinkers are not taking personal responsibility here.

In conclusion, I think that having a designated area is good and a curfew on top of that could be effective. Temporary bans and upgradable bans for drunken behaviour is fair and the Gm’s should not have to clean up after people. Saying that, I do not like the idea of totally dry events, that’s just asking for work arounds.

Also, very good points from Linda. I’d be happy to see a lot stricter measures be put in place that would take the danger of having to deal with the police away from the organiser.