As another question…
Are we seeing repeat offenders or is it a case of people screw up get drunk and then learn and don’t do it again?
These are two very different scenarios that may require different solutions. A repeat offender may require multi-game bans but first time screw-up may have already learned their lesson.
[quote=“Uncle Vanya”][quote="NickPitt]
-Crappy bunking conditions. I’m in the room full of snorers. I will get 0 sleep if I’m stone-cold sober (again, this has happened and it was the worse night ever) and will be a complete wreck for any game activities the next day. If I have a drink or two, that will go a long way to put my mind at ease if I’m physically uncomfortable or deafened by snorers.
[/quote]
THIS! Goddamn this. The reason I do not bunk anymore when I can help it. As an extremely light sleeper, at larp events, I cannot sleep unless I am in absolute or near absolute silence. The only effective counter to this that I have found is drinking enough to let me get to sleep. At one Hydra, there was snoring the cabin next door, I ended up going outside and trying to find a place where I could actually sleep outside. The point is, there are plenty of reasons, some valid, others less so, for why we like to drink.[/quote][/quote]
Earplugs have changed my life. I bought my first set after my first larp and I have never looked back. They can take a little getting used-to, but my goodness, how they help. That being said, I camp for the same reasons as you, Vanya. Earplugs and a hot water bottle and I’m snuggly warm, away with the fairies. 
I do drink at most games I attend, but considering what I’ve heard about the problems that have come with it I would support a dry event ruling. The legal, social and safety issues have been well-covered here but the drinking is also affecting the way games are run. A couple of drinks while characters sit down and talk is good, I’m a big fan of that, but it just isn’t stopping from there. There has developed a culture of drinking at events like Teonn where everything stops and the crew go to bed or come back as “villagers” to join the drinking. From that point, the GMs can’t run anything for safety reasons and the players drop character. This is probably just me, but I really hate the half-in-half-out of character time. During this period night time loses any sense of atmosphere, urgency or danger and becomes a joke. It’s always the one safe to wander about. It’s very limiting to what can happen during a game and when it can happen and that makes the game less fun. I would rather attend a dry game knowing that I’m expected to be in character at 4:30am rather than that being considered a out-of-character time.
I totally agree that I don’t like the half IC and half OOC!! I tend to bugger off when it starts getting OOC.
[quote=“amphigori”]
Earplugs have changed my life. I bought my first set after my first larp and I have never looked back. They can take a little getting used-to, but my goodness, how they help. That being said, I camp for the same reasons as you, Vanya. Earplugs and a hot water bottle and I’m snuggly warm, away with the fairies. [/quote]
That won’t stop the mosquitoes from biting. That won’t stop the bunks from being uncomfortable or two stuffy (and sometimes smelly). That won’t stop the buzzsaws from overwhelming even the earplugs that I’ve tried. I’m fairly serious on this point.
We always head off to have a few quiet drinks of the IC variety in this case. I also hate the OOC drinking, it tends to get much rowdier because there’s no longer any expectation to maintain your character.
[quote=“Mandos”]I appreciate this is a good idea in principle…but if you can spot someone is drinking and ask them to eat food, you can also spot them drinking and advise moderation which achieves the same thing. [/quote].
The difference is that if they a meal food before/while drinking, then that’s that, the biochem impact is definite. If they forget your moderation message then it’s a lottery as to whether they’ll get drunk.
If we had a late night drinking culture of:
a) grab your drinks and snacks to share
b) get a bowl of hot food
c) sit down in the late night area and eat your food whilst having your first drink
d) go to bed by a set time (either 2am or 3am)
Then I think many of the incidences would be avoided.
The problem with the “everyone take personal responsibility” approach is that it obviously isn’t working. I prefer creating a situation where it is easy to take personal responsibility i.e. by having lots of food on hand rather than expecting everybody to have their act together to bring and prepare food. We do the same with toilet paper - event organisers usually ensure there is a supply, even though everyone should bring their own.
Perhaps a better example is car seatbelts. Cars didn’t used to come with them, and before 1978 you didn’t have to wear them, which meant they were mandatory for new vehicles. And you know what ? We had massive roll tolls and injuries, all of which were preventable (or at least mitigated) by the wearing of seatbelts. Despite the obvious (and scientifically validated) benefits of wearing seatbelts, people didn’t exercise their “personal responsibility” until there was a legally enforced culture change.
Furthermore, I think that once we start ensuring their are consequences for intoxication, people will get the message that it won’t be tolerated and get on board with the culture change that we are seeking.
Maybe. I don’t think GMs should be obliged to take this on along with their other game responsibilities. Some of our GMs don’t even drink.[/quote]
What Derek said. When was the last time you saw a GM at late night drinkies? Running this stufd is exhausting, at Chimers I don’t have the energy to sit up and socialise for my own fun, let alone until the drinkers are wrapped up. I heard festivities went till 6am at this last Chimera.
With incidents, GMs don’t even hear until after the event that it happened so we have no way of dealing with at the event.
Sorry, Anna, I didn’t at all mean to imply GMs should be up all night. I had thought that they were being notified of problems when they came up - and at that point it’d be appropriate to make it clear to whoever was causing the issue should not expect to be playing in the AM - and that could be done through whoever was attending to the issue (with the GMs blessing).
What I’m trying to suggest is that some sort of system should be in place that sees the person suffer an immediate penalty (go home early and miss the rest of the weekend) rather than allowing them to remain on site and be penalised later.
But agree that there’s the issue of manpower/fun police rearing its head again…
(Disclaimer: I don’t personally drink alcohol, and am fine with people drinking alcohol in moderation. Drunk people, however, make me profoundly uncomfortable)
Something I think would be helpful to add to the pre-game briefings, would be what to do/who to speak to if you feel someone is taking things too far.
As a non-drinker, with little experience dealing with intoxicated people, it can be very unnerving & discomforting to be confronted with a situation involving someone you think may have had too much to drink. While it may be obvious (“go find an organiser or red hat”) in hindsight, in the moment, and with no recent instructions to fall back on, it can be difficult to know what to do.
At this Chimera, I found myself in such a situation on the Friday night, in the late night zone. I wish I had said something to someone. But I couldn’t think what to do in that moment.
Having a clear instruction included in the briefing could be a way to help this.
This is, of course, not intended as a comprehensive fix - just one small way to improve things.
[quote=“Mandos”]As another question…
Are we seeing repeat offenders or is it a case of people screw up get drunk and then learn and don’t do it again?
These are two very different scenarios that may require different solutions. A repeat offender may require multi-game bans but first time screw-up may have already learned their lesson.[/quote]
As someone who’s occasionally done bowl holding duty, I can say that I’ve never found myself having to look after the same person twice at larp events. I don’t particularly mind looking after people, knowing that I have occasionally disgraced myself in the past (NOT at larp events), but it’s not a lot of fun, which is why I have been known to approach friends and complete strangers alike and say, “Hey, drink some water!”
With regard to other points, having food available in a late night drinking area is a fantastic idea - go Crucible! Perhaps we could organise a late night snack fund to buy snacks for Saturday night with the Red Hats at Chimera (and by ‘perhaps we could organise’, I mean if Anna approves the concept I’ll do it!)
What Vanya said about a couple of drinks improving sleep in unfamiliar surroundings. This Chimera I was far more alert on Saturday morning after staying up until 2am and having a couple of drinks on Friday, than on Sunday morning after I crawled into bed straight after the flagship 
My 2 cents
Kirsten
[quote=“amphigori”]
Oh, and another expectation, which I’m sure is already in place, is that it is evident you’ve been drinking, you don’t get to RP. There’s no way I want anyone who has been drinking to be swinging at me with a larp sword.
But, again, even though I’m using lots of words now I think it’s actually pretty simple.
I agree completely. Drunkeness and sword play? No thanks.
In addition to that though, before someone is physically ill or violent due to alcohol, it might be possible to encourage them to stop drinking or slow down OR swap to water and food, it would require a team effort of everyone who is drinking with them though.
In hospitality, we have 4 stages we have to learn to recognize in someone drinking. Once someone begins to become unsteady on their feet or slurring their words however, we’re to cut them off. Generally speaking, before that happens we offer them more bar nibbles and pointedly place water in front of them. Something similar at LARPs might work. Not putting the responsibility on one volunteer or worker as such, but asking that the group enforces it.
As people have said, this doesn’t seem to be a widespread problem - the vast majority of people do drink responsibly or not at all.
Siberhuskies, I disagree. It’s big enough a problem it can’t be ignored and only needs to go seriously wrong once to create a situation where a tragedy had devastated the community and hobby. I’m facing dealing with half a dozen incidents from last Chimera. Its not something I’m looking forward to.
[quote=“NickPitt”]
We always head off to have a few quiet drinks of the IC variety in this case. I also hate the OOC drinking, it tends to get much rowdier because there’s no longer any expectation to maintain your character.[/quote]
Do we know if IC drinking ever becomes a problem? My guess would be no, because you’re often still in a world that is not entirely safe. Of course this doesn’t apply to Chimera, but I’m just wondering. All of the incidents that I have personally heard of usually happen after people have dropped out of character. I totally agree that sometimes the IC situation warrants having a couple of drinks to wind down if the day has been stressful (and let’s face it, often it has IC)
[quote=“Lady Prema”][quote=“NickPitt”]
We always head off to have a few quiet drinks of the IC variety in this case. I also hate the OOC drinking, it tends to get much rowdier because there’s no longer any expectation to maintain your character.[/quote]
Do we know if IC drinking ever becomes a problem? My guess would be no, because you’re often still in a world that is not entirely safe. [/quote]
I don’t think it has, really. There are usually half-a-dozen of us in the taverna in the small hours of the morning, and we’re usually pretty jovial, but none of the regulars are big drinkers, so that probably has a lot to do with it.
I think it also changes your perspective: being smashed interferes with your ability to roleplay. It’s either drink responsibly with your friends in the tavern, or get smashed by yourself in the OOC area.
[quote=“musicforwolves”][quote=“Lady Prema”][quote=“NickPitt”]
We always head off to have a few quiet drinks of the IC variety in this case. I also hate the OOC drinking, it tends to get much rowdier because there’s no longer any expectation to maintain your character.[/quote]
Do we know if IC drinking ever becomes a problem? My guess would be no, because you’re often still in a world that is not entirely safe. [/quote]
I don’t think it has, really. There are usually half-a-dozen of us in the taverna in the small hours of the morning, and we’re usually pretty jovial, but none of the regulars are big drinkers, so that probably has a lot to do with it.
I think it also changes your perspective: being smashed interferes with your ability to roleplay. It’s either drink responsibly with your friends in the tavern, or get smashed by yourself in the OOC area.[/quote]
Yeah, I was just thinking about this and I can’t recall a time when an IC group has included someone who has got into trouble. Plenty of situations where people have fallen asleep (like me when you put a blanket on me!), but never to the point where they’re physically in trouble.
There might be an exception to this of course, but in all my experiences I’ve never seen it. I’ve been taken to bed before because I was falling asleep at a table in 33AR. Perhaps that was inconvenient for someone? Guess it depends on the person.
I’m not interested in details or naming names, but this seems to be a rather major spike from the sounds of things.
Which other events have had this number of issues?
The thing about the incidents that I’ve heard about at Chimera, there isn’t a heck of a lot more that could be done from an organisational point of view - I think the suggestions so far have been, what, either lay some food on or arrange for some players to do it? Have people told off to be the fun police/take on bartender responsibility roles instead of the volunteers who’ve felt that they’ve had to? As has been said, outright penalties like sending someone home or banning them from future events are ambulance at the bottom type things - the person who’s been banned will be sorry about it, but the harm has already happened. There are already Red Hat volunteers and people with medical training being stuck with cleanup and looking after people, and I think they’re wonderful for doing that, but I’d personally rather that they got more larping and having fun time and didn’t have to deal with self inflicted woes.
Here’s the other thing - expectations about good behaviour were really clearly communicated before and during, all the things like keeping it to the middle hall so people can sleep, clean up after yourself, don’t put yourself in a position where people have to look after you… those things were all broken by the small number of people who got disruptively drunk. More stern voices from the organisers and light/non-drinkers is probably not going to mean much to someone in the fey midnight hour who’s already ignoring the social contract that’s in place. But what I would be interested to see, from a social engineering point of view, is maybe trying to harness the Bellwether Effect. What I mean is - could we get a few of the people who are already in the party crowd and likely to stay up late socialising to deliberately plan their evening to be responsible. Things like talking before the game about how they personally are going to be responsible about their drinking, and doing things like setting an alarm for 1am or whatever at which point, no matter what, they stand up and say quite noticeably “Oh, look at the time, I’d better get to bed.” Even if it feels artificial as hell, people are herd animals - setting up a social attractor from inside the drinking crowd might be a thing that influences behaviour in a positive direction. (I’m cribbing this idea from the behavioural psychology our Health & Safety guys are using at my work, where the risk of messing up is someone dies - it’s not an idea coming from thin air or anything.)
My 2c, anyway.
A significant number of people have made and/or agreed with the following:
I think that’s a fair summation and amalgamation. What seems to have been neglected by those supporting these four points, or at the very least needs to be reinforced and reminded to us all:
This is already happening. This is the current status quo.
Organisers are already reminding everyone at their event’s initial briefing of the responsibilities they have. The NZLARPs code of conduct is reinforced, a code created to outline the expected behaviour.
A person can (and some have/will) be banned or removed from NZLARPs events by being too drunk.
It is doing no good.
Every event, at least one unacceptable situation is caused due to the consumption of alcohol.
Event organisers are, rightly so, afraid that they will have to answer for the death of an attendee at their event.
People are suggesting variations on the existing status quo. This includes giving event organisers even more to do, or making certain other people are there to remind (at best)/enforce (at worst) a concept of Personal Responsibility. As one who’s been there, recently, to ensure others are maintaining that responsibility, I can tell you that it’s not enjoyable to be forced to stay up until 5am, and be cleaning up an entire hall, on your own, while already exhausted, and while revelers are still up and insisting that they are fine. This, and variations thereof, are what we already have in place. It’s not enough.
To be clear and honest, I’ve been at both ends of this spectrum, and somewhere in its middle.
I’ve been one of the IC revelers, pointedly told to shut up and go to bed due to being too drunk to control my speaking volume. (IC was then, and can be, a problem.) Since that day I’ve never been that drunk.
I’ve been one who enjoys social half IC/half OOC drinks. (though I agree we should attempt to keep it one or the other)
I’ve been the concerned friend or significant other of one who’s had to take time out of their game to look after an inebriated attendee.
I’ve been the guy kicking people out of the late night area at what is decidedly early morning (5:30am is nearly dawn during September).
Here’s the long and the short of it:
This is a serious issue, we’ve tried to stop it, but it isn’t working.
We need a better solution.
Yes I have seen it on a few occasions. Not incidents at the extreme end of the scale, but yes the IC drinking has lead to high levels of intoxication or issues such as keeping others up as well. Maybe it’s not as often, but that is hard to judge.
So need to be careful trying to split the 2 up and saying one type of drinking has issues, while the other doesn’t.
I’m not interested in details or naming names, but this seems to be a rather major spike from the sounds of things.
Which other events have had this number of issues?[/quote]
There have been incidents at last years Chimera, there have been various incidents at previous Teonn games. I can’t say I have had any major issues at Hydra beyond playing areas left in a mess. And I can’t speak for 33AR, Witch House or other events.
But one of the reasons this was raised with the Committees is that the number of incidents seems to be increasing.