Frequency of Play - will we jump the shark?

Community Larp discussion
#41

I can’t figure out where all the anger is coming from but Crucible has certainly changed larping in Auckland.

There seems to be two constant messages that I am getting from Crucible:

[ul]
[li] The GMs are overwhelmed by the number of emails they’re getting from players[/li]
[li] I need to communicate with a GM to figure out how to do anything[/li][/ul]

For my part I don’t know actually how to engage with Crucible. I’m putting a lot of effort into trying to figure the game out but there seems to be so much secret stuff happening that I feel like an outsider.

#42

This is the nature of a faction based game. I’d recommend making a Hound if you want to avoid this.

#43

Unfortunately, a large part of an event such as that, would be to find out what was available. No one knows what ‘swaps’ will be available at such an event. However, I’m ok with people swapping things without others being there, that’s going to happen regardless, there’s little point policing it.

But a GM-sanctioned opportunity to swap, discuss, and most importantly, network? That’s a shame to miss out on, and feels like falling behind.

As a side note, the lack of networking makes you feel more vulnerable to PvP (because you can’t be confident that the other characters IC care about your wellbeing), and less capable at PvP (because you’re missing out on all the edges everyone else is swapping between themselves), so it’s a double-edged sword.

#44

[quote=“Derek”]
For my part I don’t know actually how to engage with Crucible. I’m putting a lot of effort into trying to figure the game out but there seems to be so much secret stuff happening that I feel like an outsider.[/quote]

Agreed. I’d love to be able to be involved with this game, but everything changes very quickly, and a lot of it is just beyond our ability to figure out. Keeping up with the events by reading about them online is so much more time-consuming than actually being there, partly because it never seems like everything’s in one place.

I also think that Fraser just said far more concisely what I was getting at earlier - missing the GM-sanctioned opportunities to network feels quite isolating, as though we’re on the outside of the game at all times.

#45

[quote=“amphigori”]

  • Scrap downtime actions - please! The GMs could just as easy send a half-page update to each faction a month prior to each weekend game with a summary of things that affect them to help shape the story/flavour/mood of that faction. [/quote]

I really liked the downtime actions, regardless of the epic fails I received for me they added some personal background that I appreciated because I cannot make all of the adhoc events.

[quote=“amphigori”]- Sanction fewer player-run events/encourage different types of player-run events - Look at encouraging/enabling one GM-sanctioned player run event per major hub in between games (Welly and Aucks). Encourage faction-neutral events to allow plausible participation for all players. This could be as simple as the GMs putting up a scenario then asking a team to run it. “We’re looking for players to run an event that would be a grand ball held by an eccentric, long-time resident of the island keen to hear the stories of the newest arrivals - and has offered to help provide information on how best to survive in this harsh land.” Etc …

It’s all well and good to say: If you don’t want to play, just don’t play. But it’s not just FOMO that presses people into trying to ‘keep up’ with the game. It’s a want to help collaboratively shape the story (which is one of the big appeals of larp) AND experience logical, cohesive, character development. And at the moment, doing that means keeping up with quite a lot of activity, and for many (certainly myself) that’s turning Crucible into an obligation and a time-sink. [/quote]

For me Larping is a bit of fun, it is not the all encompassing passion that some of the community enjoy. I have a non-larping family and as result I don’t get to go to a lot of the events in Auckland. I actually thought this would disadvantage me greatly going into the second weekend game but with my downtime action results and a 10 minute catch-up with the faction I had a really great game.

I think the key is that the community needs to recognise all the types of players we have. From the part time LARPer through to the full time deeply invested players.

Every time there is an event a heavily invested player misses out on is going to cause a small amount of bad feeling. People can be consciously aware they cannot go to something and still feel subconsciously left out. I think as a result it would be better if the various events were more social/unsanctioned as I think missing an unofficial event is less of a annoyance than a sanctioned event.

For me there are 2 or 3 sanctioned events on or around the weekend of my birthday this year, meaning that whatever I was going to organise I will not see any of my Larping friends, so I would have to say I think saturation is reached.

#46

That’s concerning. One would hope that the game is newbie-friendly. Sorry, don’t have any specific advice. I suspect that if you just make your character, then show up and see what happens, then hopefully we can just get you involved in what’s going on and you’ll have fun.

#47

Yeah, Jason I do get that you personally love a higher volume of gaming than I probably do. I -do- put a lot of man hours into my primary game, which in this case is Crucible. And I put a lot of effort into it as well, not only for myself, but for others. But in order to do that, I need some downtime to process, plan, evaluate, do things, etc … And I find the current pace too full on to do that. I feel rushed, I feel like stories change too fast, people’s IC behaviour changes too fast, and plans I start putting in motion become moot/outdated almost overnight.

Sorry if I’m not explaining myself clearly. It is a bit mean to call me small minded though :/[/quote]

I’m not going to apologise for thinking that it’s small minded to suggest, as you have, that whole sections of the game be removed because they don’t suit your personal pace.

If you are rushed, then the answer is to be involved with less of the game. Crucible works perfectly well as a game in which people only participate at the weekend games (or however much more you want to be involved in). Though perhaps someone could step up to produce summaries of the key events and changes from each downtime for each faction so that those who do not want to engage with “everything”.

And if THIS is the kind of “abuse” which people are talking about then the problem isn’t with what is being said but with the sensitivity and deliberate desire to be insulted on the part of those listening.

#48

It didn’t sound like that was what Jackie was suggesting to me. It sounded to me like she was suggesting it as a way to take pressure off the GMs.

#49

Jackie and Frazer, I like your points and your suggestions. I shall add a couple myself.

Remove mechanical benefits from non-weekend games. Move the XP to the weekend games, and have any benefit from day games simply be fun and IC interactions. Where the latter includes important plot, advertise this, but limit this to one game per city per phase.

Tax people in character XP for OOC abuse. Most of it happens online, so it is easy to document. Pick a date (e.g. 1/1/15), and if anyone can prove a person has posted abusive messages online in relation to crucible, that person looses 1 XP per incident. Have this go through the Wellfare officer rather than the GM’s, and give the Wellfare officer power to dock the XP without the GM’s need to sanction it. Have one evening in each city between games set aside for people to appeal this, but have it be in person, and show them the screenshot or quoted abuse for them to defend. In addition, you could publicly post character names and/or the amount of XP docked after this appeals day as a reminder to others.

#50

[quote=“Admiral”]I’m not going to apologise for thinking that it’s small minded to suggest, as you have, that whole sections of the game be removed because they don’t suit your personal pace.

…

And if THIS is the kind of “abuse” which people are talking about then the problem isn’t with what is being said but with the sensitivity and deliberate desire to be insulted on the part of those listening.[/quote]

Calling someone small-minded for their view is abuse, I’d be surprised if most people didn’t agree with that. There are so many ways to make a point without stooping to derogatory terms. And I’m also surprised that you think that using derogatory terms is going to persuade someone to your point of view (which I’m not the first to point out).

#51

Oh, I also really like the idea of an IC wartent. Particularly if we can move the Warmaster and Spymaster actions there (the Governor and Paymaster work best in down time, I think - lots of people want to contribute to this too). Means people can spy on each other for political benefit in game! Perhaps have one GM who processes the wartent decisions on Saturday night and then the GM’s as a whole process the second lot after the game. Perhaps give the Governor a chance to alter things on Sunday morning if the results of the first phase drastically change things (e.g. the home territory gets destroyed, etc etc).

#52

[quote=“Walter Hamer”]
Tax people in character XP for OOC abuse. Most of it happens online, so it is easy to document. Pick a date (e.g. 1/1/15), and if anyone can prove a person has posted abusive messages online in relation to crucible, that person looses 1 XP per incident. Have this go through the Wellfare officer rather than the GM’s, and give the Wellfare officer power to dock the XP without the GM’s need to sanction it. Have one evening in each city between games set aside for people to appeal this, but have it be in person, and show them the screenshot or quoted abuse for them to defend. In addition, you could publicly post character names and/or the amount of XP docked after this appeals day as a reminder to others.[/quote]

I love this idea.

#53

I’m pretty sure there’s already a welfare guide/code of conduct thingy that effectively says don’t be a dick. Don’t we? People who suffer abuse should just be able to go to the welfare officer or follow whatever process is already there and the matter can be dealt with accordingly, right?

#54

Hey Everyone,

I hope this continues to be an avenue of discussion rather than some kind of pitched battle.

I am very on the fence with pretty much everything you guys are talking about. I like the idea of a War Tent. That sounds great. It also sounds great to get all our Downtime stuff out of the way at an In Character Council of war. That is why I wrote politics into my character in the first place. Councils of War are awesome. That is such a great idea… it’s probably the absolute best one to come out of this thread so far.

I started LARPing half way through Teonn. I joined in with a clumsily written badass loner character with zero connections (until one particularly helpful LARPer sorted me out with a bit of costume and a great backstory link with them). The reason I don’t understand the whole “We fall behind when others run events we can’t attend.” thing… is honestly because I came in half way through a campaign, friends with nobody, and had an absolute blast of a time. I forged amazing relationships and had a real rollercoaster ride of awesome emotional experiences. I was also pretty instrumental in some heavier aspects of the plot, despite being very new and not connected at all.

Now we cut to Crucible. I’m two games in. My character is very fun, and I feel a lot of potential for good story. I get involved with the stuff I want to get involved with, and ignore the stuff I find boring. There seems to be a lot more drama than I saw in Teonn, mostly because of the factional aspect of the game, and that’s taken a while for me to get used to. Bleed is real I guess, and definitely turns very rational people into dickheads from time to time. I won’t say I’m not guilty of that a bit. Like I said, it’s a new dynamic that I only feel I’ve really got my head around very lately.

I guess it really comes down to why you LARP. I can understand that if your goal really is for your faction to win, then you’d be upset at missing opportunities. If your goal is to have a great experience at the game and to share that experience with others, then I don’t see the disadvantage in missing a few events here and there. Hell, even missing XP wouldn’t substantially impair my ability to have a decent game, but I’m not as system-crunchy as some.

I like the idea of a simplified Downtime, mostly because I don’t see much point in the personal actions and stuff to begin with. It’s never been very satisfying to me to get randomly given rewards or punished by the roll of a dice or because of a strange mechanic I wasn’t aware of. What’s far more satisfying is to get hurt or helped in character, at a game.

In saying that, I do think that the feel of these factions struggling their way across the island is cool and important to the story. I’d love to keep that factional aspect in the game, which is why the War Tent strikes me as such an awesome idea.

All Crucible all the time bugs me a little I guess. My wife and I took a few months out from the facebook groups and such, and it was a really nice two months. I definitely came back from it more energised and ready to roleplay.

I also don’t really understand the access thing. A bunch of us in Alteraan got quite upset at the idea that we were regarded as the ‘GM favourites’ because a lot of them were friends or workmates of ours, so we asked the GMs if we really did have a substantial advantage over the other groups. We were told we definitely didn’t - we (at the time, which was probably about 3 months ago, so should be about right), had less templates and secret stuff than several of the others (including Sachsenheim actually). In terms of Downtime, well, we just had our home base burned to the ground, so if that’s what GM access gets you, I am moving to Wellington!

I suppose it’s just a case of perception. Maybe I am blind to it because I am on the good side? All I know is that I don’t really mind what form the GMs choose Crucible to take. If that means we only get one daygame between games, and I get to spend a weekend in Wellington every once in a while, that’s okay really isn’t it? We’ll roleplay for fun or have parties if we like, when we like, where we like.

I do feel like this is a bit of a storm in a tea-cup, borne of badly phrased facebook arguments and way too much passion directed in the wrong place.

As for the abuse? Point me at them and I’ll happily remove them from play myself. We’re all part of this community and have a responsibility to ensure people are treated with respect, even when we disagree.

#55

That’s probably a good suggestion but I don’t think that would help.

The larping community used to feel like one big group of friends; it no longer feels like that. It feels (to me) that the change has happened because of the way Crucible has done factions. I’m not trying to blame anyone for this. I think it is just an unfortunate side effect of the style of game that nobody really anticipated.

#56

It didn’t sound like that was what Jackie was suggesting to me. It sounded to me like she was suggesting it as a way to take pressure off the GMs.[/quote]

Yeah, it’s a way to create less admin on both sides, which has the byproduct of benefiting my personal pace but that’s not the sole reason. It’s, in part, to address the multiple people who have expressed some discomfort with the 365 availability/demands of the game and a suggestion on ways to help reduce that.

I’m not looking for an apology per se. I’m not that fragile. I think it’s a poor choice of words on your part. I’d assume you can see that it’s much more inflammatory to call me ‘small minded’ than to say you have a differing viewpoint. Which I’ve already said I appreciate. :confused:

Anyway, there have been some good opinions and expressions of people’s point of view so far. Thanks for giving your 2 cents worth everyone.

#57

[quote=“Damocles”]Hey Everyone,

I hope this continues to be an avenue of discussion rather than some kind of pitched battle.

Now we cut to Crucible. I’m two games in. My character is very fun, and I feel a lot of potential for good story. I get involved with the stuff I want to get involved with, and ignore the stuff I find boring. There seems to be a lot more drama than I saw in Teonn, mostly because of the factional aspect of the game, and that’s taken a while for me to get used to. Bleed is real I guess, and definitely turns very rational people into dickheads from time to time. I won’t say I’m not guilty of that a bit. Like I said, it’s a new dynamic that I only feel I’ve really got my head around very lately.

I guess it really comes down to why you LARP. I can understand that if your goal really is for your faction to win, then you’d be upset at missing opportunities. If your goal is to have a great experience at the game and to share that experience with others, then I don’t see the disadvantage in missing a few events here and there. Hell, even missing XP wouldn’t substantially impair my ability to have a decent game, but I’m not as system-crunchy as some.

I like the idea of a simplified Downtime, mostly because I don’t see much point in the personal actions and stuff to begin with. It’s never been very satisfying to me to get randomly given rewards or punished by the roll of a dice or because of a strange mechanic I wasn’t aware of. What’s far more satisfying is to get hurt or helped in character, at a game.

All Crucible all the time bugs me a little I guess. My wife and I took a few months out from the facebook groups and such, and it was a really nice two months. I definitely came back from it more energised and ready to roleplay.

I also don’t really understand the access thing. A bunch of us in Alteraan got quite upset at the idea that we were regarded as the ‘GM favourites’ because a lot of them were friends or workmates of ours, so we asked the GMs if we really did have a substantial advantage over the other groups. We were told we definitely didn’t - we (at the time, which was probably about 3 months ago, so should be about right), had less templates and secret stuff than several of the others (including Sachsenheim actually). In terms of Downtime, well, we just had our home base burned to the ground, so if that’s what GM access gets you, I am moving to Wellington!

I suppose it’s just a case of perception. Maybe I am blind to it because I am on the good side? All I know is that I don’t really mind what form the GMs choose Crucible to take. If that means we only get one daygame between games, and I get to spend a weekend in Wellington every once in a while, that’s okay really isn’t it? We’ll roleplay for fun or have parties if we like, when we like, where we like.

I do feel like this is a bit of a storm in a tea-cup, borne of badly phrased facebook arguments and way too much passion directed in the wrong place.

As for the abuse? Point me at them and I’ll happily remove them from play myself. We’re all part of this community and have a responsibility to ensure people are treated with respect, even when we disagree.[/quote]

I’m reporting on the “private” abuse second-hand, but from people I trust not to make something out of nothing and not to get easily offended. But I can understand why they would be reluctant to come forward - I know I’ve held my tongue, because I don’t want to get a tongue lashing either. Because if the Facebook conversation last night showed anything, people who disagree do not get treated with respect.

Perception is a problem…I think it’s a bad sign when we can’t accept things on good faith, but I have been struggling a bit, but I think now that people are being a bit more open about it, I’m understanding a lot more, and tailoring (and apologising) where necessary. I hope other people will read this and do the same. This is my first PvP game, and, as I understand, one of the first to be run in New Zealand. I think that requires EVERYONE to examine how they are reacting, and I am not an exception at all.

It may be a bit of a storm in a teacup, but I think this has turned into a discussion worth having.

One of the problems I have with the “name and shame” solution is that “abuse” is that I’d prefer people to have the opportunity to apologise for stuff they made have said in the heat of the moment. Whether the person affected wants to take further action should be up to them - name and shame will just create more friction, and probably dissuade people from coming forward, because they’d fear further backlash.

#58

The naming and shaming is optional in my suggestion, and your raise good reasons not to include it. Docking XP should cull the behaviour significantly, in my opinion, provided that the Wellfare officer responds to the complainant and the quoted abuser promptly.

#59

I would like to say that I concurr with Jackie on all the points she initially raised. Here is my perspective on things:

I think one of the things that has perplexed me and confused me and quite frankly been the stress of Crucible for me is all the stuff that happens in between the game. Not the live action events, but the downtime and the online roleplaying and the discussions. I like to larp because it is Live Action roleplaying. I like to tabletop for different reasons and boardgame for different reasons. What I look for in a larp is different what I look for in other types of gaming. And I know some larpers who don’t game in these other ways. The thing that ties all of the types of gaming that I like is that they are at a set time, so that they don’t consume my life. And unfortunately Crucible has changed this.

I would generally just ignore things but as a leader of one of the factions I feel that if I do then I will let the players in my faction down. So I have to lead a double life as my character, and the fact that its one 24/7 365 days a year means that there is no break. For me the fact that Downtime actions were released two days before Christmas was not ok, this is a period where the whole country goes on holiday (and I was), and traditionally a silent period in the community. I appreciate that many people find some of these aspects fun, but that fun can be found in other sources of gaming, Crucible, as what is pitched as a LARP, doesn’t need to fill all of people gaming wishes to be a great game. But it can (and in some peoples eyes, is) suffering from offering too much. Sometimes less is more.

Martin raised a good point. There is a lot of larp happening in the community. That means that I don’t want to spend all the time I like to spend larping on one game. Don’t get me wrong there are things I love about Crucible. But the negativity that has happened this year has seriously made me think about quitting it a few times.

Bullying is not ok. There needs to be some consequences to this. I like Walter’s idea.

#60

[quote=“Damocles”]I guess it really comes down to why you LARP. I can understand that if your goal really is for your faction to win, then you’d be upset at missing opportunities. If your goal is to have a great experience at the game and to share that experience with others, then I don’t see the disadvantage in missing a few events here and there. Hell, even missing XP wouldn’t substantially impair my ability to have a decent game, but I’m not as system-crunchy as some.
[…]
I also don’t really understand the access thing. A bunch of us in Alteraan got quite upset at the idea that we were regarded as the ‘GM favourites’ because a lot of them were friends or workmates of ours, so we asked the GMs if we really did have a substantial advantage over the other groups. We were told we definitely didn’t - we (at the time, which was probably about 3 months ago, so should be about right), had less templates and secret stuff than several of the others (including Sachsenheim actually). In terms of Downtime, well, we just had our home base burned to the ground, so if that’s what GM access gets you, I am moving to Wellington!
[/quote]

Hey man,
Pretty much agreed here, and it is good to continue receiving reassurance like this that the playing field is a little more even than it seems from where we are. Mostly, it’s good to have information being transmitted! I’m always of the opinion that it’s nice to be able to share our in-game statuses with other players without it influencing our in-character decisions - maybe a pipe dream, but a guy can hope.

I’d disagree a little with the idea that missing out on things is only a disadvantage if you’re out to win, though. I’d love to get more involvement in various events just because it offers a chance to make the character exist in the world a little more. I’d love to be able to say “Oh, Leo Kallistranos? Yeah, found him in the forest, had a chat about jousting. Weird kid, but he’s got his feet on the ground.” As it is, with events constantly being out of the way, or impossible to get any real RP with Aucklanders (online is fun, but it’s much slower), I don’t feel like I’m able to really get into the game. I’d like it be easier to get involved with cross-faction events because that way it feels like the character really exists, rather than being a pawn that gets shuffled around each downtime.