Frequency of Play - will we jump the shark?

Community Larp discussion
#1

Disclaimer: I appreciate the effort our GMs put into this game. I want to help save their sanity by ensuring they focus on the right content, and the right amount of it - and have less complaining to manage/listen to. I am not a GM and do not know how it is ‘in the trenches’. But my discussion here is one out of a want to see the game thrive, see players and GM happy and enthused, and continue to foster a happy, healthy, balanced LARPing community. But given recent chatter on FB I think it’s time for some discussions to be had about game over-saturation and how it’s affecting players/the game.

Thinking specifically about Crucible - do we have too much of a good thing? I think players and GMs should consider if they’re enabling an slightly unhealthy atmosphere by providing and encouraging near on-demand roleplay. Downtime, GM-sanctioned player run events, non-GM sanctioned player run events, online roleplay …

The appeal, for me, of Live Action roleplay is the ‘Live Action’ part. Not only does this keep the playing field fair for those who can’t engage in ‘in between’ stuff due to preference, busy lives, location, etc … but it keeps the focus on what makes a major campaign LARP different from tabletop, or a boardgame, or something you can enjoy more frequently.

The big campaign games should feel epic. Special. The blockbuster movie compared to the 10th season of the TV show that’s jumped the shark. If you constantly play the game, you rush toward that 10th season feeling too quickly.

And we all need a break. GMs, players. If you talk about/hear about something every single day, you are bound to get sick of it.

Given the arguments that happen with increasing frequency about, well, everything … I started thinking of some measures that might help steer the focus of the game back toward the games themselves, rather than filling up the months between with a constant stream of game stuff. Your opinions may differ of course.

  • Scrap downtime actions - please! The GMs could just as easy send a half-page update to each faction a month prior to each weekend game with a summary of things that affect them to help shape the story/flavour/mood of that faction.
  • Bring in an in-game War Table at the LARP - a faction’s command group could have a designated time at the war table with a GM to plot, plan, and have the kind of discussions downtime actions are meant to symbolise, in person and in-character in a beautifully set-dressed war tent with maps and charters and ledgers - providing that kind of game experience for the people who are into it, while keeping it live-action focused
  • Sanction fewer player-run events/encourage different types of player-run events - Look at encouraging/enabling one GM-sanctioned player run event per major hub in between games (Welly and Aucks). Encourage faction-neutral events to allow plausible participation for all players. This could be as simple as the GMs putting up a scenario then asking a team to run it. “We’re looking for players to run an event that would be a grand ball held by an eccentric, long-time resident of the island keen to hear the stories of the newest arrivals - and has offered to help provide information on how best to survive in this harsh land.” Etc …
  • Have 'blackout periods’ - where the GM team is not to be contacted/will not respond. To anyone. And stick to it! This means not listening to suggestions/requests from anyone - be it flatmate, workmate, life-mate, whatever. (This will not only keep our GM team fresh, but help stop some of the complaints that Aucklanders have the ear of the GMs).

It’s all well and good to say: If you don’t want to play, just don’t play. But it’s not just FOMO that presses people into trying to ‘keep up’ with the game. It’s a want to help collaboratively shape the story (which is one of the big appeals of larp) AND experience logical, cohesive, character development. And at the moment, doing that means keeping up with quite a lot of activity, and for many (certainly myself) that’s turning Crucible into an obligation and a time-sink.

So what’s your opinion? Do we have too much of a good thing here?

#2

I am torn. Because I see many people getting into the game outside the actual LARP events and having a great time.

I’d hate for their enjoyment to be lessened.

But I know that I’m missing out on a lot because I simply don’t have time to be All Crucible, All the time. So whether it’s true or not, I feel increasingly disconnected from the game. There’s many reasons for this some of which are beyond my control.

I knew going in that I would simply not be available for much online rp. I’m not sure how much is going on but it seems heaps.

I’m not too worried about events I can’t get to if they are pretty much social events. However, because of very high GM involvement, these events have turned into mini games. That’s fun when you’re there, not so much when you’re not. Personally, I think that social games should be just that.

I also think that quite significant (and good ideas) like Gnosis Point should be done as a part of the weekend game. I realise that’s a player created event. But yeah.

As Jackie has said, I want to LARP with my friends. Proper games are where I can put my concentration. Everything else becomes vastly secondary.

#3

I love the idea of an IN-game War Tent/table during specified hours of game. I think that would be EPIC and return a lot of the flavour. (I also like the move vs tv series analogy).

I like sanctioned events, but I (as a coord and crew member) am seriously struggling to keep up with them all now. I’m supposed to know so many damned things, and I can’t keep up these days. So, yes, I’d be very much in favour of there being less of them. Then I can visit my friends just to be friends, I can talk with them about other things than Crucible lol.

Black out periods would be awesome. Given the nature of the beast, I’m not sure if it’s feasible though tbh. I know most of the GM/Coord team worked right through the last one. We didn’t get much of a break. There’s always someone who’s there with the “well, while you’re here”, or “can you just tell me this one thing and then we’ll change the topic … 2 hours later”. A heap of self discipline from both players and GM’s would be required for this to happen imo

I’ll confess this has put some strain on my relationship. Not only my love life, but with some of my friends. Yeah, I’d like to see it cut back a bit. I can understand the hype, the competitive nature or feel of the game and our player base, but trying to maintain intel, and communication cycles with this many players and this much activity is practically a full time job! Combine balance on top? exhausted.

What I’d also like to address, is an attittude that’s been creeping in. It’s small, but vocal, and I’m not pointing fingers at any one person or city. But the social bullying by folks when they’re not getting their way for a game is getting out of hand. When I see people who genuinely like each other, abusing each other and fighting with each other, over something that’s meant to be fun? Yeah, not cool. Reminds me why I stopped other activities in the past. Tbh, I admire so many of you and respect you … but this level of behaviour makes me sad and empty and I wonder why I’m busting my balls to try and help. hugs I really do like you people a lot, ya know? :slight_smile:

#4

I’ve never seen this happen to a LARP, so I’m confused about where this even comes from.

I’m a gamer for all seasons, I boardgame, card game, computer game, LARP, tabletop roleplay and wargame. I see the different aspects of the Crucible game as what they are, attempts to engage players from a wide range of slightly different (though closely related) different kinds of gaming. What feels to some as an unnecessary and irrelevant addendum (downtime faction actions, for example) can be to others their favorite element of the game and the reason they are engaged with Crucible.

Furthermore I think that we already have a wide variety of different kinds of player-run events, in this downtime alone we have had a formal factional gathering, an informal party and a symposium. None of these are essential and I know players who are not attending any of them but are perfectly satisfied with their Crucible experience. While GM suggested events run by players are another avenue to explore I’d suggest that they are unnecessary at this point (especially if one accepts the central argument that we are playing too often!).

It has been pointed out that the factional nature of Crucible feeds into the feeling of “disadvantage” due to the inability of some to participate in all events. I think that this is a very fair point. However it would be difficult to prevent PC gatherings by those who WANT to have “more” in their game and some onus for ensuring that everyone has the same opportunities in terms of PC run events rests with those who are feeling excluded (after all, no-one has any right to demand that other people do unpaid work on their behalf) to produce material and/or opportunities of their own. It is also a fact that Crucible is, as intended, perfectly playable as ONLY a weekend LARP and provides a perfectly satisfying experience when engaged with on only that level.

There are some good ideas here, the STs already have “blackout periods” (which I think people need to respect more), an in-game “War Table” would be awesome (who’s going to make it happen?) and at the very least perhaps some players should be able to “hand over” their downtime actions to their faction leaders (or whoever it is that is going to do downtime actions for the faction) so those for whom that part of the game does not sing do not feel obliged to participate just to do their part.

tldr - Not everyone wants a weekend LARP to be JUST a weekend LARP, so arguing for that is unfair to those who like other aspects of what Crucible offers. But at the same time those who want to “opt out” should feel free and able to do so without disadvantage (though I think this is largely true now and the “disadvantage” is perceived but not real).

#5

I would totally own the creation and set dressing of a war tent if that was to be a thing. I would love to do that. It would be such fun to make it super pretty and authentic.

#6

Hey Jackie, is there some way to add a poll to this? I know some people don’t like to contribute for anonymity reasons, but may at drop their 2c in the well if it’s a poll :slight_smile:

#7

I’ve checked and I can edit to add a poll - I’m just not sure what kind of poll you want, or if it’s appropriate for me to be polling in the first place :smiley: That seems like it might be stepping on GM toes. I don’t want to do that.

What I do want to do is foster a constructive and civil discussion and get some suggestions/feedback. If the GM team see things they’d like to implement/get community feedback on then they might want to run a poll about game changes or implementing new things :slight_smile:

#8

I’d recommend communication through proxy, such as someone who is willing to post on their behalf. If they want me to post for them, I’m more than happy to do so.

I don’t think a poll will be a very productive way of contributing to the issue.

Putting forward resolutions would be.

I’m still putting what I think into words, but as I said, I’m happy to post on peoples behalf if they PM their input.

#9

The suggestion i would make is whether an office hours like system for GM contact is feasible. This way the times that they are open to being contacted are clear and open making the playingfield even for all who want face time with one of them. The contact email would remain the primary communication channel outside of office hours.

#10

I’m not as concerned about the number of events, personally: they tend to be events my character doesn’t have much reason to attend, beyond casual interest. I think that they have a tendency to spill over into other places, though, and that’s what my major concern about the 365-days-a-year playing style is. When a downtime event is there purely for the roleplaying benefits it provides - when it advances personal plot, or provides a plot without any significant ties to the rest of the game, that’s fine. IC events that aren’t weekend games are best, I think, when they’re tailored to advancing the individual stories of the characters in attendance. That way, the players who can’t attend don’t get the feeling of missing out on something major.
I think this is particularly noticeable in Crucible at the moment, where everything that has been sanctioned by the GMs is Auckland-based. What’s more, as the GMs sanction events, they then fall under the ruleset of the weekend games. What I mean by that is that they have the potential to confer mechanical benefits. ‘Gnosis Point’ which I think is a very good idea overall, risks this by enabling people to swap knowledges with the other people in attendance. In other words, it gives those who are attending benefits, and if you can’t get there (maybe because you’re a seventy-dollar flight away), then no benefits for you. Some Wellington players have picked up on this, and despite reassurances from some places (and outright insults from others), it’s very difficult to shake the feeling that your character is losing out because you’re not able to travel to Auckland every month.

When this happens, as it has time and time again, with downtime actions and IC events and ruleset changes and pretty much everything that has happened with this game, it spills out onto facebook. This morning, my thirteen notifications were all about Crucible - some good, some bad - and I was only away from facebook for nine hours. The amount of time I spend playing this game has now been seriously eclipsed by the amount of time I spend watching people fight about it. Some Wellingtonians feel they have genuine grievances about the way in which they are treated, but whenever they raise these issues, they’re told that they’re wrong, that they’re just complaining because their faction is losing. If the grievance wasn’t genuine before, it definitely becomes so when someone refers to me as an “attention whore” (yep, direct quote) for asking whether or not we’ll get a sanctioned event down here.
When I’m angry at the difference in access to the GMs in both cities, it’s because I find getting access to information is that much harder here. I’d like to build a character, but the ruleset is out of date, and only a few Aucklanders know that we’re now on delta rules. I’d like to ask what my leeway is to create a part of the world, in all its customs and nuance, but the email I send through the official channels goes three weeks without answer, and by the time I get a response, someone else has done it. Aucklanders have the option (although it’s frowned upon) of buttonholing a GM at a party, or sending a facebook message, and because the GMs are people that the players see reasonably often, they stand a better chance of getting a response. Yes, I know this probably doesn’t happen a lot, and that people are probably mostly going through proper channels, but we can’t see that from where we are. The signal of this game (actual announcements, timely uploading of correct and relevant information) is being drowned out by the noise (comment threads on game mechanics that turn into online RP, complaints about how and when events are being run).

How can any of that be fixed? How can we ease some of the tensions that run high in this game?

  • I think a good way to start would be to make it apparent whether or not players are approaching the GMs through appropriate channels. Saying that the GMs won’t respond unless you send it to the right email address is fine, but it would be great to follow that up, however briefly, with an acknowledgement to all those players that have done so - a gentle reminder that following the rules is rewarded. I also wonder whether or not the response time from official channels has improved.
  • I think players should try and refrain from jumping in on facebook comment threads - they never seem to have any effect beyond being tangential or becoming heated and abusive. I wonder how my experience of this game would improve if I wasn’t being constantly met with yet another question, argument or event every time I stepped online.
  • I think it’s really important that between-game events are limited in the amount of mechanical benefit they provide. I don’t think players should be refused XP because they’re unable to travel to an event that they don’t have interest in. Weekend games, sure, but I feel like downtime XP should be awarded for any type of downtime action, even online. That way, it might return the IC events to the importance they were originally intended to have - a fun thing to do, rather than a thing that must be attended otherwise you miss out. It would make them optional events, and that might reduce some of the frustration I feel when I hear that the players in Auckland have an opportunity to improve their characters that isn’t being fairly offered to all players.
#11

Point of…for lack of a better word, order, that a lot of people seem to be missing. Not trying to be implying that you don’t understand it’s just a good jumping off point.

A Sanctioned event is something player organised and initiated, which is then approved by the GM’s. Not the other way around.
Perhaps organise something down there and get it sanctioned

#12

Point of…for lack of a better word, order, that a lot of people seem to be missing. Not trying to be implying that you don’t understand it’s just a good jumping off point.

A Sanctioned event is something player organised and initiated, which is then approved by the GM’s. Not the other way around.
Perhaps organise something down there and get it sanctioned[/quote]

Yeah it’s when you create an event (as a player), and it gets sanctioned by the GMs.

#13

People contacting you/me/us to put things forward for them kind of detracts from the anonymity and community wide poll concept :slight_smile: After all, then we have 3-4 voices saying they speak on behalf of a group, which brings us back to where it looks like things are atm. Which, I’d hope you’d agree, isn’t so pleasant. :slight_smile: Regardless, I spoke to Jackie privately and withdrew my request. I agree with her that such a thing, if it comes about, should be prompted by the GM’s.

Actually, Wellington has tried to organise a couple of events this current DT phase. I know, I tried to help. One was stopped because the date conflicted with a wedding in Akld and people up there wanted to be able to attend down here, along with those from down here wanting to make it to the wedding. Sure, the wedding was canned, but too late for us to do much by then. Tried again, same date as the fire festival. Same problem, just no cancelled event. I mentioned some other dates to people, but they conflict with other events. Some crucible, some not, some in Auckland, some not. We tried, we’re going to try again. :slight_smile:

As a thought, just a mild one and I’d hazard that everyone has done this already. Have you/we all tried to see it from each other’s perspective? Without the “you’re wrong, I’m right” thought process?

#14

Sorry, poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that the ‘attention whore’ comment had been directed at a question about whether there would be an event offered in Wellington that would confer XP. Should have said ‘GM-plotted’ rather than ‘GM-sanctioned’.

#15

I think the issue is not with the frequency of sanctioned events but with the fact that they’ve all been up in Auckland, which is not so good for Wellington folk. Restricting sanctioned events wouldn’t improve this problem imo-- quite the opposite, we should perhaps be encouraging player-organised events ESPECIALLY with regards to Wellington. All of the events that have gone forward so far have been player created and then later sanctioned rather than vice versa, and encouraging specifically Wellington players to organise awesome events in the downtime so they don’t miss out should be a priority. I’ve said multiple times that a future Gnosis Point event in Wellington would be SUPER AMAZING, I WOULD LOVE IT, GO FORTH WITH MY BLESSING.

That said, I don’t think too much in the way of plot etc should be delivered by GMs at player-held events. Discussion of existing plot, maybe, but not delivery of anything new. Save that for the GM-created day games, I think that’s fairer on the players.

#16

[quote=“Lokisson”]
Actually, Wellington has tried to organise a couple of events this current DT phase. I know, I tried to help. One was stopped because the date conflicted with a wedding in Akld and people up there wanted to be able to attend down here, along with those from down here wanting to make it to the wedding. Sure, the wedding was canned, but too late for us to do much by then. Tried again, same date as the fire festival. Same problem, just no cancelled event. I mentioned some other dates to people, but they conflict with other events. Some crucible, some not, some in Auckland, some not. We tried, we’re going to try again. :slight_smile:[/quote]

What I have to wonder, is why do we have to attend every event that is presented? Why wouldn’t people attend the ones that it makes the most sense for their character when there is a clash?

#17

[quote=“amphigori”]*****************
Disclaimer: I appreciate the effort our GMs put into this game. I want to help save their sanity by ensuring they focus on the right content, and the right amount of it - and have less complaining to manage/listen to. I am not a GM and do not know how it is ‘in the trenches’. But my discussion here is one out of a want to see the game thrive, see players and GM happy and enthused, and continue to foster a happy, healthy, balanced LARPing community. But given recent chatter on FB I think it’s time for some discussions to be had about game over-saturation and how it’s affecting players/the game.

[/quote]

One of the hardest things I’m finding with this game is that, due to no fault of the GMs, this game is not fostering a “happy, healthy, balanced larping community.”

I desperately want to this game to work. I am so amazed at the work that the GMs, crew and players have put in to make the games an amazing thing for everyone involved. The breadth of the game is intense, the world is amazing and everything is so darn cool.

You know what’s ruining the game? The other players, and I don’t think the 365/year style of input is helping. I’ve witnessed anyone who even slightly critiques the game (and phrases those questions politely) receive abuse. I think I know where this comes from - friends of the GMs see the work they put in (because of the 365 days/year - and get very protective. But when it results in calling people “attention whores” and “dickbags” then I’m wondering if it’s at all healthy for anyone. And I’m not speaking out of turn here, because I’ve dated GMs, been friends with GMs, and am currently living with the crew-cordinator so I can see the strain that running these games causes people (and the lack of thanks they receive.) If you find yourself swearing at someone and being generally abusive on behalf of the GMs, especially to people you may consider your friends, then it’s time to step back.

Honestly, I don’t mind how many GM sanctioned events are run - my understanding that it has (this time) been a handy way to give people XP without having to put the GMs under the strain of organising day games with so little turn around. I’ve also been told that because of the fact that people often cannot afford to go to these events then the GMs understand and will award the XP anyway. I don’t particularly care about online rp, or downtime, or people wandering around dressed as their character chatting to a few people IC in their own home. That’s outside my control, and I don’t want to dictate how or when people have fun.

What concerns me more is the abuse. This game has brought out the really ugly side of people in this community who think since they’re friends with the GMs then they have the right to send hate mail and be generally horrible to other players - be bullies, basically. And I know there are a lot of people who don’t do this, who are just as horrified by this as I am. But by saying nothing, by not calling people out on this, you are making this seem like this behavior is acceptable. This is the ONLY area where I’d like to see the GMs step up when things get out of hand OOC. It’s fair enough to shut down the conversation when things get heated. It’s not fair to just ignore players treating players this way.

Is this the kind of culture we want to foster as a community?

#18

Taking off my GM hat for a moment – this is an opinion I’d formed about larping in general, not just about Crucible, while I was still a player. I also live in Auckland and have done for the entirety of the time I’ve been larping, so more or less all of this is based on my experience with the community up here. And since so much of this issue revolves around Crucible, much of this is probably going to be based around that.

In my opinion, this stems in part from the near-oversaturation of Auckland-based larps. Currently there are 3 monthly games, 1 bi-monthly game and several larger campaign games on their own schedule (including Moonbright and Sabbat). Not to mention there’s at least 1 monthly game in the works, as well as the possibility of an Auckland run of ‘The World That Is’ and the upcoming ‘Dry Spell’ campaign. Plus then Chimera, and other one-off games, and Medusa is just down the road for a lot of us. And that’s before Tuesday nights at the AMERICA Club, various BattleCry events, other regularly scheduled gaming groups and more. And I know I’ve missed a dozen or so other events too. In other words, there’s a hell of a lot going on up in Auckland. And, of course, The Crucible and all of its assorted events…

What I’ve seen this lead to is a mentality that everybody has to participate in everything, all of the time. I’ve seen arguments stem over the timing of one particular event because it either directly clashes with or inconveniences anybody attending a separate event. People lock events in as early as possible to avoid losing participants to another event, taking care not to clash with any regularly scheduled event. It’s become a logistical nightmare than people get very upset about because they have to go to Event A, they’ve been part of Event A for years now and dammit the organizers of Event B won’t budge so they’re going to miss out everything is terrible forever rargh rage and tables being flipped.

What I’ve also seen is people getting very excited over everything. It’s entirely expected, we wouldn’t be part of this community if we didn’t love what we do and want to do everything we can to make everything even better. As a result of this, a lot of people have started organising even more events to add into the calendar. Beyond even that, people have been organising more online scenes (whether in a semi-public group on Facebook, through private PMs or meeting up in person for an evening or two). In particular, I believe that the Crucible attracts the biggest attention since it’s the biggest game currently in the country (and again, not speaking as a GM here, this is something I’ve discussed numerous times while I was still a player), and a lot of people are very excited about being a part of this and wanting more still (and no matter what your level of involvement is, that love is incredible to see). But it’s all becoming a bit much. It runs into the same problem as having too many different events, in that it starts to occupy all of your time, and everything else has to be shuffled around to make room for this. And this is what leads to people thinking there’s too much, that they’re missing out whether by geography leading to them missing out on a live event or lacking the time to be involved in an online scene.

Facebook also makes it really easy to organise events and scenes, and offers different ways to facilitate these, which I think is part of the problem. It takes all of 2 minutes to set up an event, or PM somebody with an IC letter you’ve drafted up while walking home. This kind of immediacy, combined with the excitement to participate and a fear of missing, combines into what some see as 365 Days of Crucible. And I personally love and hate it – I feel like I’m missing out sometimes, but I see how excited people are to be involved. It’s just what years of a growing and excited community has led to.

I’m not going to say people can’t do online scenes, or organise their own events. Maybe there’s too much Crucible. Maybe there’s too much larping in general. There’s definitely a geographical split, but it’s not my place to say with any definitive authority why this may be or how to fix it (if it even needs fixing). There is no easy answer. But I’ve always said that Auckland needs just one or two more regular games, to break the mindset that we aren’t allowed to miss out. Maybe that’s what this has finally been.

#19

[quote=“Zari”]
That said, I don’t think too much in the way of plot etc should be delivered by GMs at player-held events. Discussion of existing plot, maybe, but not delivery of anything new. Save that for the GM-created day games, I think that’s fairer on the players.[/quote]

Couldn’t agree more. I’d love to see a Gnosis Point panel on elements of the world that nobody has mentioned yet, back from where we all came from. I’d love to learn more about the game-world, about customs in Alteraan and social structures amongst the Hounds, that I can’t get elsewhere without reading a two-sentence wiki article.

[quote=“Helikaon”]

What I have to wonder, is why do we have to attend every event that is presented? Why wouldn’t people attend the ones that it makes the most sense for their character when there is a clash?[/quote]

We don’t have to attend everything, that’s true, but we do try to organise our events so that they don’t clash with real-world things… which they often do at this time of year. Moreover, some of the Auckland events seem to have a greater bearing on the game plot than the events we tend to organise - that probably comes down to the fact that with multiple factions in attendance up there, you have a greater opportunity for cross-faction politics. Down here, short of a concentrated effort to get people down from Auckland, it’s the Sachsens, a Valerian, a Dra’zhar, a Korashuran and two Hounds.

#20

I think that AN issue with frequency of events is the over-saturation issue. It’s not the only issue :slight_smile:

But I think that if there is one sanctioned event in Welly between games, and one sanctioned event in Auckland between games, GMs can plan accordingly, distribute info, make appearances, etc and build it into their schedule of game design/information release, etc …

With less to manage, things can be managed better, perhaps.