Should we formalise shield construction requirements?

Should we formalise shield construction requirements?

  • Yes - make them super safe so we can hit each other with them
  • Yes - just make them safe enough we don’t have accidents, but still don’t allow people to attack with them
  • No - I’m happy with shields as they are, please don’t change anything
  • I don’t care, any of these options work for me

0 voters

Reciently, Adam mentioned that some other larps had rules for shield construction that allowed people to hit each other with their shields. Currently, we have some informal rules for what is allowed and what isn’t, but we still don’t allow people to hit each other with them.

I’m interested in hearing what other people think about formalizing these rules, namely:

  • creating a shield specification requirement
  • allowing people to attack with shields

If we make them safe enought to hit people with then at least people have the option of using them like this.

HOWEVER

I have serious reservations about allowing this level of contact. For me it would come down to the level of acceptable contact from a shield…

SO

In general I’d rather just have safe shields in a general sense.

I’m iffy about anything that is rigid enough to act as a shield, yet soft enough to not hurt when you cop the edge into your face.

The problem with aggressively waving a shield about is that this increases the chance that you’ll get hit by the edge somewhere sensitive.

Also, do you anticipate shield charging as part of using “combat-safe” shields ?

Also, do you anticipate that existing coreflute shields could be made “combat-safe” ? If so, how ?

On the standardisation of shields, would this be for new shields or would you expect existing shields to be upgraded to the new standard. I have quite a few shields, none of which have caused injury, so this would represent significant time investment for limited, in any, benefit.

We already have at least one common rule: no wooden or metal shields. Shields must be composed of lighter materials such as corflute or foam, so if you accidently get hit with one it’s less likely to cause damage through heaviness and hardness.

In addition to that, I’d like to see all our shields have a minimum of a foam edging. It’s the edges (and corners) that catch people in uncomfortable ways sometimes.

I think that allowing shields to be used as a weapon should be a decision for individual larps. It is rather like the allowing headshots, it escalates the combat style in a way that some players may not be comfortable with, so I see it as something that could be used in rarer “hard core combat” larps that might also allow things like grappling. Larps that wish to allow shields to be used as weapons can then specify their construction requirements and allowed usage.

No idea for any of those questions Mike :mrgreen: I just threw the question out there to encourage discussion…

First up. I don’t care what happens, I’m not asking because I want to hit people with shields, I’m asking because I’m curious about what other people feel. I don’t think our combat is missing anything because we don’t allow shield attacks.

Looking at the current shields that are out there at the moment, I’d suggest:

  • generally, they’re okay for contact using the face of the shield (large surface area)
  • generally, they’re not okay for contact using the edge of the shield
  • if we wanted to allow strikes with the edge of a shield, we need to make shields a lot softer and maybe define a minimum radius for corners of about 50mm to save eyeballs.

I’d suggest also that if we wanted to allow people to inflict damage with shields:

  • we probably shouldn’t be able to inflict damage with the face of the shield, because this doesn’t really make any sense
  • we should require a strike with the shield edge to inflict damage

Perhaps a reading of minutes from the committee meetings would have shed light on this but for those who have not had the time to do so I moved a motion that a standard be set for all larp weapons including shields and bows. The committee approved that the gear officer and I should set about creating an apply able standard across the board that NZ Larps would use as a recommended guideline. It would not be mandatory for event runners to stick to the guidelines but it would be their own responsibility not to do so.

I have just finished the Archery section and we are working on close quarters equipment at the moment.

There will be a standard put forward across all larp equipment by the committee in the new year.

Various aspects of the archery definitions requirement (which have not yet been approved by the committee) include certifying larp safe bows with a tag identifying the weapon as larp safe as well as a stringent larp archery safety test which must first be passed before a member will be qualified to use it for one year. At which point they must retake the test. Arrows heads must exceed a specific diameter in order to reduce the risk of them directly entering an eye socket and there is a poundage limit on bows at a draw of 28"

These are the basics outlined I do not wish to go into greater depth here as this is a post about shields.

What I would like to know is if you feel that shields can be labels as bows are - each one tested to see their practicality and restrictions set about for the type of shield use.

For example - Green classification shields may be used as a weapon as well as blocking
Blue classification shields may only be used for blocking larp weapons and larp arrows.
Yellow classification shields may only be used for blocking larp weapons.

etc. - please note these are suggested guide lines and may not represent the final gradings or the color chart to be used.

[quote=“Xcerus”]What I would like to know is if you feel that shields can be labels as bows are - each one tested to see their practicality and restrictions set about for the type of shield use.

For example - Green classification shields may be used as a weapon as well as blocking
Blue classification shields may only be used for blocking larp weapons and larp arrows.
Yellow classification shields may only be used for blocking larp weapons…[/quote]

It’s good to know this is happening. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I would suggest that before you “pass” any combat archery rules, that some people get together with maximum poundage minimum specification arrows and shoot the crap out of each other

I think larp arrows should be able to be blocked with anything. But I don’t want to get distracted by that point…

Back to the shields!

I think you could certainly look at having rules that applied to all shields, like:

  • no metal or wood in construction
  • padded / rounded edges

Which would be the minimum to get it on the field. That would mean that nobody would annoyed by the new rules, because their shield should hopefully pass these requirements…

And a separate (additional) set of requirements for shields people intend to attack with, like:

  • corners rounded to 50mm radius
  • padding must extend at least 75mm past the edge of anything riged (pickle barrel / corflute / cardboard)
  • must weigh less than 1kg
  • whatever
  • etcetera
  • blah blah blah

I don’t know about the color coding. I personally don’t think it’s desirable, and suspect it wouldn’t be observed by people making shields. Like anything else we take larping, the player knows if it’s able to be used as a weapon. I can take a wooden walking stick on a game that I know I can’t attack people with, or I can take a larp saft walking stick. I don’t have to colour code the real one.

I didn’t mean to paint their shields in that color i meant a grading system whereby the shield is given a classification card that gives it NZ Larps approval to certain guidelines.

I’d like to see basic standards (no wood or metal, padded edges), but I don’t think I’d want to see them required to meet a weapon standard, simply because it will result in them being used like that. I’m a complete n00b at larp combat, but physically barging people over (which is what shields as weapons means) adds a whole new level of risk which I am really not comfortable with. If people are comfortable with it, then they can do it by mutual consent, as seen in “Dark Hart of Camelot” (where the combat between champions was apparently more physical than normal).

Accidents happen, and we should insulate ourselves against them. But outright risky behaviour is just plain stupid.

(Though I’m actually more concerned about the idea of a safety standard for bows and arrows. Yes, they’re cool. But unless everyone is wearing a full-face helm (or at least a viking “sunglasses” helmet) they’re way too dangerous in my book).

Larp safe arrows are perfectly safe as long as they are used correctly - full face protection is really not required. If a fight with 8,000 people can have larp safe archers in it and each year arrows don’t cause the injuries sustained then they probably are not the issue.

The purpose of the classification system is not to say : you may always use this for X Y or Z but instead to say - in a larp where full shield use is permitted (such as camelot) then you require a green grade shield to participate. In no way are we intending to use these classifications to justify peoples miss use of larp equipment nor do we wish to see people using them outside of the way the game they are participating in endorses.

edit: After all just because I can use my light sabre in star wars to sever limbs doesn’t mean i can use it to the same effect in st wolf gangs. The same should be true of all larp weapons. Use as instructed in THIS game not as you have previously.

Okay, I understand now and that makes much more sense. I misunderstood the original suggestion thinking for some reason you wanted to grade shields within a game, rather than let each game pick a grade of shield that they require.

Letting each game pick a grade of shield makes sense.

I’m not sure about the colours. I suspect people will adopt different names for the grades that have meaning (like ‘no wood and steel’, ‘padded edges’, and ‘all foam’). Using colours for grades only clouds the information.

Ok as a person of smaller stature/weight class need to chip in with my worry…

I’m worried that if a sheild is defined as “Safe as a weapon” people may be tempted to use it to “Sheild shove” (using the flat face to push a player). Now if your not prepared for that and the player is larger than you (lets say adam was to do it to me) you could almost universaly end up on your butt after receiving one with no chance to resist it. It’s pretty much a sure fire way of taking smaller fighters out of the fight very quickly. But it can also be a good way to fall, land on and injure your shoulder/wrist/head/knee/ankle/pretty pretty face. If your character is injured and goes down in combat, you go down and you control the fall but if your knocked down you dont always have the luxury of controling how, on what and what hits the ground. And if a player has the defence of “Oh I was just hitting them with my sheild”, I think they are going to be more comfortable doing it, particularly if they are a new player or younger player whom is a little over excited and gets carried away in the heat of combat.

I’m ok with making requirements to make edging safer but I dont want “Safe as a weapon” stamped on sheilds (metaphoricly).

I like the colour coding idea, it would be easy to understand.
Like the standards for shields making too, so anyone can make their own and easily get guidance for that.
Not liking the idea of hitting people with shields though.
I totally share Cameron’s concern here. Shield is a big powerful thing, and the “I’M SO EXCITED!!!” condition in players may result in stronger-than-safe hits, especially in the heat of mass combat, especially for newbies with no experience of pulling the blows, especially at night combat in the forest which is a common thing in high-risk larps.

Cameron: The intention is to standardize a weapons classification.

It is then up to the games GM to decide if they want or do not want players to be allowed to shield slam each other.

What we are putting together is going to be the classification guidelines for what a shield should be made out of in order to be classified by NZ larps as slam safe. What GM’s and Players then do is their own responsibility and we in no way wish to enforce that “green” shields are always ok to be used for high combat.

It is up to the GM’s to decide what they are happy for players to do - I will say this over and over again :slight_smile:

If there is a high combat larp run in which the likes of porl, derik, ryan, matt and myself play in where shield slamming etc are allowed then it would be well advertised as a full combat larp so that any one else who was interested in playing would be well informed. It would also mean that when these players turn up with their kit they will be able to provide laminated cards with a description of their weapon stating that it had passed NZ Larps requirements to a “green” level of construction and so could be used in a high combat environment safely.

(Please note i am not limiting the player base to these people nor am i suggesting anything about their character I just feel that these guys would probably be more welcoming to a full combat larp and their names came to the top of my head first.)

I would like to say that - just because somone turns up with a laminated card that is approved (assuming this is even the way we end up doing it - it might not be please don’t jump to any conclusions just yet) does not mean that there is no need for a pre-larp safty inspection of the gear to ensure it has not been damaged since it was constructed. Just because it was made to be safe does not mean several events down the line and a bit of wear and tear it still meets those guide lines and we will be encouraging GM’s to actively perform weapons checks before games and possibly even before larger battles towards the end of events to ensure that no damage over the course of the event had jeopardized the integrity of the weapon.

Please remember that we are creating these guidelines to protect players from injury and allow ease of mind at events for people who may be worried about craftsmanship and personal safety.

Are you gonna have classifications for larps themselves as well to clarify the level of risk? Then you can put all the details for combat and related stuff into rules and advertise it as larp of such and such characteristic, so that everyone knows what it is about. And then you can have that whole big guideline for NZLARPS in total that describes all the details. Would be good to have it as one document, and also to have it available online.

The reason I only started larping 6 years after I found out about larping is that there was no safety in available options, so I think it’s a good idea to give such warning as you described above. Though it means I’ll have to avoid some larps for safety reasons, but I guess if big guys are all into the idea of going playing between themselves - why not.

Lucy: It is something we are considering - as I said at the moment it is work in progress and we should have at least some guide lines out in the new year - I would like to think that GM’s would inform their players what kind of larp they are getting into as part of the rules - perhaps the introduction of an array of safety standards will mean these things will start appearing in rules more often. While alot of them do - some still do not.

Given the lack of interest in using shields as weapons expressed in this thread, it might be overkill for the society to create standards for it. To keep the safety standards simple for everyone to understand, it might be better if the society just creates a single “minimum safety standard” for shields, with the assumption they won’t be used for bashing. That way you wouldn’t need different colour gradings, equipment would either meet the minimum standard or fail.

You’re right that I’d be happy to play a hardcore larp with shield bashing and grappling allowed, if the rest of the larp appealed. But I think that will be a once-in-a-blue-moon event (I’ve never seen one here in twenty years of larping), so it’s not worth the society making general rules for it as they will confuse the important minimum safety rules. Let such a larp make its equipment rules if it ever arises. Personally my rule for that would be simple: all shields in that larp would have to be entirely foam, no corflute unless it’s used just for the grip.

In terms of arrows, I’d like to see the standards allow for the IDV arrows. They have become the standard larp arrow in continental Europe and are used in massive battles there including the world’s largest larp battles in Germany, so I think they have passed the “larpsafe in practice” standard. Some UK larps have allowed them and some haven’t, and I think that’s because of overly-rigid standards. I would like to import some at some point, and it would be disappointing if the standards are too specific too allow them (for example, requiring a flat striking surface or a minimum striking surface diameter that disallows them because they have a convex striking surface).

Minimum striking surface is a unquestionable one and is perhaps the 2nd most important larp safty guide line for archery one for which I will not budge on due to the nature of perminance in eyesight loss.

[quote=“Aiwe”]
I totally share Cameron’s concern here. Shield is a big powerful thing, and the “I’M SO EXCITED!!!” condition in players may result in stronger-than-safe hits, especially in the heat of mass combat, especially for newbies with no experience of pulling the blows, especially at night combat in the forest which is a common thing in high-risk larps.[/quote]

I have seen exactly sort of thing at games already, particularly between two people who both have shields. I nearly called a time out for it as one time was at a KS game. If either combatant has been smaller than they were, one of them would have been bowled clean over, and the result would not have been pretty.

While I’m certainly keen on the idea of general standards to promote gear safety, I’m not sure I like the idea of NZLARPS having to turn into a ‘governing body’ to keep tabs on the matter, or at the very least an overcomplicated rating system that every bit of gear and every game needs to be classified under. Maybe this isn’t the intention, but I can see it happening :-/

Re arrows,

http://www.idv-engineering.de/html/eye_safety.html

My problem with these arrows is they don’t appear to have a decent open-cell buffer on the front to kill bounce-back like other arrows - http://www.king-cart.com/oknight/product_name=Low+Speed+Arrow+%28IDV-LS01%29/exact_match=exact/. For what my opinion is worth, I have taken one of the latter to the family jewels, and in my awesomeness (or the fact they ARE that safe), shrugged it off and kept running after I figured out I still had HP left. I’ve also taken one from about 4-5m, which is considered too close by most systems here, and it still impacted and dropped straight to the ground without rebounding.

I agree. Especially if the standards will simply be importing UK prejudices and ignoring the experience of the far-larger larp scene in continental Europe.

Curiously the soft-foam flat-head arrow you’ve linked to is also an IDV arrow, but it’s one they’ve more recently come out with because some markets (the UK and USA) persist in regarding flat-headed arrows as safer, largely based on intuition rather than testing. Here’s what IDV say about these “low distance” flat-head arrows they’ve produced:

(from translate.google.com/translate?h … pfeil.html)

I think your concern about bounce-back is more valid than a safety requirement that requires arrow heads to be flat. But again, I’d point out that the standard round-headed IDV arrow passes the “used safely in massive battles with thousands of people” test that Adam previously suggested was sufficient.

Where is this annual fight? The largest larps in the world are two games in Germany that have about 5000 participants each, not all of whom are combatants. The Gathering in the UK is smaller than this, although I understand they’re prone to exaggerating their numbers. Those German larps, ConQuest of Mythodea and Drachenfest, use standard IDV arrows.