Should we formalise shield construction requirements?

The only justification given to not using round heads is that they are harder to make…

A flat headed arrow is less aerodynamic and so will slow down faster, bounce back is a big issue.

Essentially however larp H+S will be imported world wide - especially due to the continued insistence of use for spell packets which are not used in the UK especially in larger scale combats.

I think what IDV is saying is that it’s harder to make flat heads safe.

Flat-headed arrows being less aerodynamic is probably the main reason that IDV make round headed arrows.

I recall hearing that the lack of aerodynamics of flat-headed arrows makes them more likely to tumble in flight, in which case there is a chance of being hit by the nock. So each design has its advantages and disadvantages.

I think the UK is trailing continental Europe in regards to arrows, much as the US trails the UK in regards to latex weapons.

Many US larpers still insist that latex weapons are unsafe, and one of the main reasons they give is that the pointed tips of latex swords could damage an eye. This is very seldom borne out in practice, and the debate around the IDV arrows seems similar.

yes but american larp arrow safety is quite frankly absurd - they cover the entire foam arrow head in duck tape…

I generally ignore US larp safety as it is usually contradictory in nature.

Which EU larps use the round headed larp arrows - all the ones I went to insisted on a flat face just like in the uk. Unless it is the more northern larps?

And don’t forget “plywood shields are perfectly safe as long as they are used correctly” :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

One constant I’ve witnessed across all forms of make-believe-combat is that everyone seems to think the other people are unsafe. The SCA think the steel fighters are unsafe because head and face protection is laughable. The steel fighters think the SCA are unsafe because they deliver full powered head shots with a stick. Everyone thinks jousting is unsafe because, well because it IS unsafe (they sometimes just park an ambulance at the end of the field to save on travel time).

(Larpers are the only ones who think larp combat is unsafe)

This is quite frankly not true there are plenty of non larpers who feel that hitting another person with an item - be it a foam bat or otherwise - is unsafe.

It’s a little hard to compile a list of who uses IDV arrows, as my knowledge of it is based on people on forums saying “my event accepts them” and raving about how much better than other arrows they are. My memory of exactly which events they discussed (often with names in French, German, etc) is fuzzy.

IDV’s website lists retailers in Germany, Denmark, Austria, Spain, and Italy.

In the UK, the curved-headed IDV arrows are accepted at several events. The fest Maelstrom accepts them, it has about 1000 people per event, 4 events a year. They’re also accepted at Hyborean Tales, which is high-end linear. Primal Forge in the UK sells them, which I assume means they’re used at Labyrinthe events as that shop seems to be linked to Labyrinthe. I’ve read of other UK groups using them too, but don’t recall the names. When I refer to the UK being behind on arrows, I’m really referring to the standards used for the CP and LT fests (Renewal and The Gathering) which a number of smaller events tend to follow as their guideline, rather than making their own.

In Germany, as I said I understand they’re used at the fests ConQuest of Mythodea and Drachenfest, each of which has 5000 participants a year. Larp is huge in Germany, and as I understand it IDV is the standard for arrows there across the smaller events too.

I don’t know about what arrows are being used in Nordic and French larp.

Here’s a discussion of IDV being used at Conquest of Mythodea, which is huge and battle-heavy:
forums.rule7.co.uk/Topic70352-46-1.aspx

Here’s a discussion where it’s said that the current IDV round-headed arrows don’t have any greater bounce-back. It sounds like this was an issue with one of their older designs. It’s also suggested that they are less likely to waterlog than fully open-cell foam:
forums.rule7.co.uk/Topic21214-4-1.aspx

Some comments from that thread:

[quote=“Ian Sturrock”]I’ve used the IDVs extensively at Maelstrom & Hyborian Tales, with no problems or complaints. Well, some people complained in-character about alleged poison arrows at Maelstrom, and I got guillotined, but that all added to everyone’s enjoyment AFAIK.

To my mind, if the IDVs don’t meet the letter of current safety standards at some systems, it’s because the IDVs are actually manufactured to a higher safety standard anyway… the Mark IIs have this incredible high-tech foam head that appears to be virtually indestructible. Of the approximately 4 boxes (64 arrows) of IDVs I’ve used either as a player at Maelstrom, or an organiser at Hyborian Tales, I’ve had one shaft start to look unsafe enough that I chose to break it, no heads deteriorate, and approximately 20 arrows just get lost off in the woods somewhere… which gives you an indication just how many we tend to shoot![/quote]

[quote=“IDV”]In Germany and Denmark the IDV arrow already is standard and the most common LRP arrow. They are approved for all major Events like “Drachenfest” (4500 participants), “Conquest of Mythodea” (3000 participants) and most others. Meanwhile approx 50% of all arrows used on German LRP events are IDV (see photos, e.g. larpbilder.de)
Several point blank Eye hits, and a lot of face hits were reported but no (“0”) injury with permanent damage or scars occured. Also no laceration occured ever with intact arrows.
The secret is the very special foam together with the inlay which does not allow to apply any dangerous force onto the eyeball but braces the arrow on the rim of the eye socket. No matter in which angle it hits.
According to the DIN-EN 71-1 (European Norm for the safety of children’s toys) the limit for toy projectiles is 60 mJ/mm² while more careful sources see the limit at 30 mJ/mm² when it comes to eye injuries. However, the IDV arrow was measured (LARPZeit Magazine #11) at 4,3 mJ/mm² at local maximum.

Another saftey feature are the captive flights, which cannot fall away, even if the glue breaks. This means that they cannot turn nock forward, even if the fletchings get loose.

After all: The Victoria Versicherung AG (a big, German insurance company) gave a product insurance on the product as a LRP (!) arrow with a coverage of 2,0 Mio Euro in case of personal injury. No insurance company will do that if they are not 100% convinced of the product.[/quote]

Note that the numbers for those German larps are from 2007, I understand that each has grown to 5000 since.

The biggest problem with them is that they will increase poundage if fully drawn - they are longer than the 28" standard which is used when measuring full draw power. For example - my larpsafe UK bow has 29.5lb pull at 28" for every inch after that you are adding nearly 1lb to the power of the shot.

I know this can be resolved by simply finding a weaker poundage bow - but what happens if someone picks one of the longer 32" arrows up to return fire and is used to drawing to full to hit a target 15m away with a 28" draw but because of the extra power behind the shot the arrow lifts and strikes the head instead - ouch.

I will talk to some of my friends in the uk and europe and get a more well rounded feel to the IDV arrows however for now I feel the tried and tested (10 years of) arrows are probably best in the interim. Better to be safe than sorry. I am always prepared to review things based on correctly formatted research from reliable resources and would be more than happy to test the new arrows to destruction if they were brought forward to ensure their safety. However for the time being tried and tested is better than the unknown.

Primalforge does sell them, but only crossbows are ever used at Labyrinth (Primalforge -owns- Labyrinth :wink:) and I’ve only ever seen the flat heads there.

Maelstrom, there were certainly none there, all arrows were flat headed, but there was maybe three people with them and I think they were more for show as everyone preferred guns…

CP most certainly does -not- allow curved head arrows, to the point that retailers present weren’t allowed to sell them.

Discussions aside, the general consensus, well, “belief” by the refs/retailers/players at CP/Maelstrom (Which included Primalforge at both, as well as Darkblade, Shian Mhor, Eldritch, and Having-a-larp) was that the curved head arrows with more solid foam -does- bounce back further, and the curve it itself was commented by a couple of people I spoke with to be more likely to cause an eye injury as the shape allows for greater ‘penetration’ into an eye socket, and the firmer foam presses deeper, while the flat headed arrows don’t fit as deeply and the softer foam reduces the chance of actually compressing the eyeball

That said, there’s compelling arguments both ways as you point out, and personally I actually want to get my hands on one to see how it feels against my eye socket :stuck_out_tongue:

One thing to point out in all this (an fyi for the general masses) - and I hope Adam doesn’t mind me jumping the gun here - the bow competency tests held here in the UK by every system aren’t just about firing of the bow but checking the safety of arrows, the reason being as you can pick from Adam’s example is that in play anyone trained to use a bow can recover arrows from the field, check them, and reuse them if they are still fit for use. Recovering arrows is actually the bigger part of the exercise - it’s your ammo, it’s what keeps you twanging, and it’s why this discussion, despite not being about the original topic, is so interesting and important.

To drift back to shields a moment - I think the current “feeling” of no metal/wood (excepting the handle?) and padded edges is probably close enough to a standard that it could be made into a formal one, with a few small clarifications like “how padded does it have to be?”, and leave that as the only benchmark at this time. If people are going to actually run a more combat intensive game where shield bashing is allowed, then maybe look at what the striking surfaces would be - edges only, face only, both etc - and make another, single standard for that IF it’s needed, outlining again about padding and so forth.

My issue with that is that no matter how well padded, a shield is going to be significantly heavier than any other weapon, and LARP weapon saftey is based around the weapon being light and controlable. The other factor, as previously highlighted, is the full body “slam” that people will inevitably go for. While I’m sure it’s invigorating for some, it’s not something I really want to see in LARP combat. Now, legal head-strikes on the other hand…

Adam, it might be best to just adopt the 3-4 most widely used arrow types as acceptable. Asking some friends in the UK / Europe is just going to get an opinion based on their particular bias. They’ll naturally offer what they do as being correct, because they’ve seen it work. Asking a different group of people, who are also experts, but who use a different standard will get a different result. Neither group is wrong, they’re both giving good advice based on their life experiences. But that advice may only allow a subset of arrows that have an acceptable risk. In fact, the advice they offer may in fact ban arrows that are safer based on some very arbitary rules (like they must have a flat face, not a convex one).

I’ve seen the rules change a lot in SCA combat over the years and they’re often created completely in ignorance of reality. For example:

  • Initially, thrusting was banned because it was too dangerous
  • Then they decided you could thrust with a sword if it has a padded tip 2" wide by 1.5" deep on the end (nobody used these thrusting tips because they were ugly and you couldn’t hit people hard enough to get them to acknowledge blows)
  • Then they moved to padded thrusting tips as wide as the weapon and an inch thick and pretty much everyone is moving to using them, because they are effective and not too ugly.

My point (yes I have a point) is that a lot of rules are created on paper without any real experimentation. They weren’t ever really wrong, they were just adjusted as people learned more. It’s incredibly difficult to simulate testing and get a result with any meaning.

I think the best plan is to look at weapons statistically. If Brand X arrow has sold 5000 units to larpers and they’re still legal at larps in Country Y then they’re probably good. It’s like picking a safe car. You can try and figure it out by crashing them into concrete blocks in slow motion, or you can go and read the “average deaths per 100,000 cars sold” figures.

Edited to add the word “Europe”

Please read my posts and comment upon them correctly - I at least have the decency to do so in regards to yours.

Apparently, if larp arrows are in use in large UK events then they’re proven larp safe.

But if they’re in use in large German events, they are not.

Apparently, if larp arrows are in use in large UK events then they’re proven larp safe.

But if they’re in use in large German events, they are not.[/quote]

Thats a very racist comment that insults both aspects of my heratage I suggest you rephrase that and fast.

Back on shields, I think the key safety question is whether you’d like to be accidently smacked in the gob with the edge, which seems to be something that occasionally happens.

Weight plays a huge role in answering this question. The reason that metal and wooden shields are a worry in larp is not primarily that they’re hard, it’s that they’re heavy and can accidently deliver a lot of momentum to your facial bits. I also wonder about the shields made from plastic barrels. How much lighter than wood are they? I haven’t used one since Mordavia. If we were to decide they’re too heavy, is there a lighter atlernative material for making good curved tower shields?

In terms of padding on the edges, I’m assuming we’re talking about closed-cell foam. The question is then what densities of foam would be allowed for foam edging (presumably camping mat and the foam used for weapon foam would be okay), and the minimum thickness would be. If the plastic barrel material is allowed, then it may need thicker edging than corflute to counter its extra weight.

The other question is whether the front face must be padded.

You are very excitable. Are you sure you’re reading my post correctly?

I’m not suggesting you’re racist against Germans, only that your arrow safety opinions seem to be largely informed by large larps in the UK, but not the even larger ones in Germany.

As I’ve pointed out repeatedly, the round IDV arrows are in common use in the largest larp battles in the world, which happen to be in Germany. By your own reasoning, that means they should be considered larp safe. But for some reason you’re a little slow to cede this point. My comment to Derek was a play on this.

I have been to larps in england, wales, scotland, france, germany, spain, italy, Austria, switserland, sweeden, norway and denmark. I have friends from those countries who I will be asking for opinions from.

Presuming that my larp experience is from the UK is very short sighted as I have also larped outside of Europe (For one I have larped here as well you know).

Why have I larped so much in central Europe? Because I have family who live there - like most Europeans I am in fact not just from the country I was born in. So no I was not accusing you of making me look racist against Germany because I am Half-German. I was in fact accusing you of being racist.

Cost is a big factor in weapon safety requirements. I saw in Denmark that the only arrows permitted in the larp I looked at were about $70 NZD each. I’ve always been keen to use archery in NZ larp, but not at that price.

All arrows used in larps like Mordavia and St Wolfgangs have been homemade, right? No safety issues?

Do we really have to have another of our lovers’ spats, dear? Here in public?

You’ve got my vote for worst logic of the day on the racism accusation. Regardless, it’s still the case that the largest larps, which happen to be in Germany, allow round-headed IDV arrows. By your own logic (which I’m now a little suspicious of) that means they’ve been proven larp safe. You seemed disinclined to take that on board, which was the point I was making.

In any case you’ve said you’re going to ask around, so it’s all good. I’m guessing your contacts in Germany will be a good source of info, as IDV is a German brand and in the most use there.

We do have a tenancy to wander… :smiley:

Looking at how polling has gone so far:

  1. it doesn’t seem like people want to be whacked with shields (9/12 don’t want, 3/12 don’t mind)
  2. the majority want or wouldn’t mind a minimum shield standard to be set (10/12)

There are a large number of unedged corflute shields around, and I’m not sure how people would feel if we suddenly required them to have padded edges. I personally feel they’re pretty safe as is, but the majority of the corflute shields I’ve made do have padded edges, and it really isn’t a lot of effort to edge them.

Plastic barrel shields (aka the XIIIth legion shields) probably should have edging on them, because they are substantially more solid than corflute and probably pretty close to timber in terms of how hard and unforgiving they are.

Really? My impression is that arrows were expensive, but more like under $20 NZD each. Still, that’s expensive enough that I’ve not yet brought any in, because I didn’t think that many people here would want to pay that. Especially because arrows are easy to lose. I’ve been crossing my fingers that the price will come down and it’s mass-manufacturers like IDV who will make that possible if there is sufficient uptake.

Arrows were hardly used in Mordavia at all, probably even less so than Wolfgangs.

In larps before Mordavia I’ve seen badly homemade arrows be a serious concern. So I think there’s a good case for creating safety standards for them. And I think that the safety standards that Adam probably has in mind may well be appropriate for homemade arrows, assuming he’s wanting heads with flat open-cell foam padding. That’s the sort of arrow that it’s possible to make in your garage.

But I also think that IDV (and perhaps some other professional manufacturers) have materials and processes available that we can’t replicate at home, and they can create arrows that are safer but have a very different form. So what I’m suggesting is that we should have a different approach to passing those arrows, should they ever make it here.

I feel that corflute shields with just taping on the edges is relatively safe too. Getting an edge of one of those in the face is unlikely to result in anything worse than mild bruising or at worst something like a cut lip, and it’s a fairly uncommon occurance. But those with foam padding propably wouldn’t even do that. So there’s a slight argument for padding them, or at least encouraging padding. That way new gear would be as safe as possible, and old gear could be gradually upgraded.

I find a lot of our older shields pretty ugly, they could get a facelift (including painting the back of them if they have exposed corflute, which is an eyesore) at the same time as padding.

I’m also very keen on shields that have no corflute, just foam sheets. They are lighter, soft, more flexible, and just generally less likely to cause harm. Using one at St Wolfgang’s I’ve found it very practical, and the ones from Wellington looked practical too.

Yeah I agree padding should be required for solid plastic shields, if we are to continue using them. But I’d suggest that it may be worth considering advising against them, if lighter and softer materials can be used to get the same effect.