Re-enacment club identity in LARPs

I’ve just been wondering around AS&S forum and found this:
swordandshield.org.nz/forum/view … ?f=8&t=565

Some quotes:

Is there any problem with this? Eventually the discussion there came to “let it be and think of it as advertising because we cannot control it”. I always thought it’s cool people use those S&S and KD surcoats because they are so awesome, but I can see why club members may be not happy with it. Have larpers in possession of surcoats been asked to not use them in larps for people who are not owing them? I believe if they were this wouldn’t be a problem, so I can’t understand where the whole “can of worms” idea came from.

I just don’t wanna re-enactors think that larpers are stealing their identity or something like that, I believe if this indeed is a problem then it can be discussed.

Well spotted - if they have a problem with it they should raise it as an issue with us - we are perfectly normal people and I am sure that I will be nominated to negotiate with them on a reasonable level. :mrgreen:

The surcoat in question is Tigger’s. He loaned it to Blair for his Sir Galahad costume for “The Black Hart of Camelot” and Blair was shown briefly on TV wearing it. He’s never been asked to not wear it in certain situations, or to not loan or anything like that. It’s never been raised with us but were they to come talk to us, I’m sure some kind of compromise can be reached. From what I interpreted, they are more concerned with it being shown on TV rather than used for private larping, which is fair enough.

That said, the tone of “Eww, we don’t want to be associated with larping” in the first half of the thread makes me sad.

I’m a (lapsed) member of Auckland Sword & Shield, and I didn’t have a problem with seeing our surcoat up there. Actually, I figured that Blair must have joined up at some point, but either way I’m still not fussed.

I think they were reasonably reserved really. Knowing the people involved, it could have been vastly more volatile. I was expecting something vastly more insulting :smiley: Heraldry holds a very special place in the eyes of many groups. It is in many senses the “brand” that they have.

My personal feeling on this is that it would be nice to look through the gear and if there are any AS&S tabbards, to send them back to the club.

I have half a dozen surcoats / heraldic jupons etc at home and I do care how / where and by whom they are worn. One in particular denotes (to many people) that the wearer is the Baron of Ildhafn (SCA - Auckland) that I had when I held that position. There is no way I’d want to see that being used outside that context. It’s very unlikely that the garment will even be worn again.

One very special piece leaps out at me 'though:

This really does beg a reply. A challange, a guage or gauntlet of some sort. It cannot pass unnoticed without riposte…

I don’t read that in that thread.

Instead, what I get is that they are proud of their uniform as part of their identity and don’t want their identity to get blurred. E.g. if a member of the public saw them practicing with metal swords in their uniform, and saw us playing larp in their uniform, they might come away with the impression that it’s all the same thing, or that their western martial arts or living history activities are larp. Which they aren’t.

The two activities are superficially similar, so there is room for confusion. Not wanting people to be confused between them isn’t necessarily a negative thing, it’s just wanting people to be able to distinguish. They may not be comfortable with the behaviour of people who are not members or ex-members potentially reflecting on their group, regardless of whether people are larping in them or not.

Personally I never considered the possibility that the uniforms might be a sensitive subject. Larpers tend not to view costumes/uniforms so much as an identity. Which is why when there was a uniform floating around in the Mordavia gear I never worried about how we used it, except to try to take decent care of it.

But given that there clearly is some concern, I think we should be respectful of the uniforms and avoid their use in public or in front of TV cameras. Even if they don’t get in contact and ask us to be, we now know we should be. The uniform one in question is Tigger’s possession so obviously it’s his call how it’s used, but the concerns in that thread are worth bearing in mind.

lolwut - AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH - you always manage to tickle my funnies :stuck_out_tongue:

Yea totally - pretending to be something you are not is totally not role playing and the seiging of castles as one side PLAYS the part of one army (romans / vikings / whatever) and the defenders PLAY another side and they yell insults at each other - yea - totally not role playing and totally not live action…
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I personally agree with Derek and Ryan here. Since we now know of the issue we should deal with it.
Is it time for tabard workshop to make couple of dozens for NZLARPS use so we don’t need to borrow the heraldic items?

Xcerus - what Ryan meant is that re-enactors go with authentic stuff, and we larpers are more relaxed about non-historical and non-existing things. Like vampires :laughing: The two activities are actually very different.

If that degree of similarity is enough for you Adam, then improvisational theatre is also larp. Not to mention laser tag and costume parties.

They’re all related, but that doesn’t make them all the same thing. I’d argue that they’re all types of pretend or make believe, and that the lines between the various types of pretend are very blurry. But that doesn’t make them identical.

In the case of living history, in my (minimal) experience the participants are often not really playing a character. They might have a different name and say “my lady”, but the character often ends there. There’s often no consistent setting, and no reason for characters to interact in a consistent manner within a fiction. In other words, it’s more like a costume party with a strong attempt at historical accuracy than a larp. But it’s not a costume party either. It’s living history, or historical reenactment, or any other of a dozen related things that only superficially resemble larp.

Lucy - I agree they’re different activities, but I don’t think the difference is the attempt at historical authenticity. A larp could do that, even though most don’t. I think the difference is that larps attempt to create a consistent interactive fiction and the players engage in it.

Oh, absolutely, I completely understand that, as unlikely as it is to be raised again, we will be mindful of it should a similar situation arise.

Derek - there aren’t any re-enactment group surcoats in the gear pool any more.

Cool! I completely understand where they are coming from and how this all came about.

So I won’t post a six page rant :smiley:

I can’t count the number of times someone has told me they seen larpers practicing in a park somewhere, and it turns out that it was either SCA or AS&S or similar. To the public, they appear to be the same thing. To me, there is significant difference between the intentions of a fantasy or medieval larp viz-z-viz reenactment or living history. Perhaps the definitions are entirely subjective.

In any case, we should be sensitive to matters of identity when comes to other groups. This is about their mana, and I think we need to act in a way the respects this. Sure, we did not know there was an issue, but now we do so we need to respond appropriately.

I suggest that Anna send them a letter that raises the issue, and asks AS&A to tell us under what circumstances we may use their livery, if any. And then we need to do what we can to respect their decision. BUT, this needs to be done formally, not via their or our forums - but between organisational representatives.

You know, Mephistopheles may have acquired a taste for heavily armoured fighters back in Daneland…:smiling_imp:

Is there any kind of human he doesn’t have a taste for?

Heh, They said I didn’t know how to wear it properly. I wasnt even aware there was another way to wear it other than put it on…

Correction accepted :smiley:

Is there any kind of human he doesn’t have a taste for?[/quote]

Scotsman - last time when it was offered willingly to buy safety for people, I believe the response was “No, I will not drink any more of that. The after-taste is horrible” :smiley:

what he doesn’t like haggis on the hoof? heathen vampire :stuck_out_tongue:

ROFLMAO. How come I’m only hearing this story now? :smiley: When was that?

Some clarification and my perspective.
I have read the AS&S forum and from what I can tell they have grumbled and discussed the issue, but are not really that fussed.
This probably ends the issue right there.
The surcoat in question is mine and I lent it to Blair.
I bought the surcoat personally, it was not gifted in any way. It belongs to me.
I understand the sensitivity various groups have to heraldry etc.

Put simply i do not wish to disrespect any group or individual.
I lent a piece of costume to a friend for a larp.
I have done this in the past and i am sure i will do so again in the future.
It happened to turn up on TV.
No group or individual was being disrespected in any way.
If it had not turned up on TV, no-one would care.
I do not think this issue needs to be blown out of proportion.

Although I was discussing it with Gaffy today after the shed was taken down. Personaly I can see there point and I do think we should probably remove the few tabards (there are a few I have seen) we have in the gear library. While I do think it is up to them to police what people do with there own private gear that has their club heraldry on it, I think we probably shouldn’t have the tabards in our gear library if it can be helped. Mearly as a good faith gesture.