LARP Element Precedence

Community Larp discussion
#41

Absolutely agree, and simultaneously disagree with the lack of immersion in Tabletop comments earlier in the thread. Immersion for me has a number of components, while LARP has a monopoly on the visual Immersion and a certain edge on the emotional Immersion it is not always the most immersive gaming form.

For example, the games I was playing most recently (a couple of years now) were part of a campaign spanning 20+ years, with a character I had played for about 18 years, the GM is a craftsman of the game who generated wonderfully intricate stories with fantastically detailed worlds and characters. The other players were also very skilled and one was playing my characters wife which provided a great emotional immersion opportunity.
While playing those games I would be drawn into the story completely, the level of immersion in those games specifically was fantastic generating some of the best tabletop experiences in my career.

So Tabletop

Visual Immersion: Low
Mental Immersion: High
Emotional Immersion: Medium
Story Immersion: High

The couple of LARPs I have been in provided a completely different level and scope for Immersion. The Visual Immersion is excellent, the levels of costuming and props is extremely high, the emotional aspect is also very high, the adrenaline of being chased is real, the sharing of secrets and emotional pain is great and a lot of moments really pull you in, but conversely the stuggle to create a story framework for large groups also shows and because of the very nature of the beast the stories and worlds are not so intricate. A lot of the sub-story lies in the hands of the players themselves and the fact that it occours in the real world with real-world time means that there are often moments where reality does flood back into your perception washing away some of the immersion.

So LARP

Visual Immersion: High
Mental Immersion: Medium
Emotional Immersion: High
Story Immersion: Medium

The upshot is that for me Immersion covers a wide field in itself and I don’t think it is a style of LARP. It is defined player by player for a variety of reasons included how the player feels on the day. The other elements (Game, Player Agency, Narrative) are the core requirments and drivers for the game, Immersion is something that is impacted (negativly or positivly) by these but I don’t believe it is a game style in itself, it is merely a case of the more the merrier.

#42

Likewise. I think that perhaps if the term “Immersion” was replaced with “Eye Candy” then we’d get a bit more agreement from the different playing styles because I think all the games are getting a good level of immersion / engagement, they’re just doing it different ways.

For me, one-on-one tournament combat is what gets my head “in the zone” regardless of costuming. It’s nice if everyone looks pretty and we’re not fighting in a carpark*, but I can still get there even in those circumstances…

*reminds me of a funny off topic story :smiley:

“No shit, there I was…” I was on a one week business trip in San Francisco, installing a computer system and training half a dozen staff how to use it. After work on Tuesday and Thursday, I went and met up with the local SCA lads for fighters practice. The fighters practice was held in a carpark under the BART (basically we fought under an elevated train track). This particular training session is kind of the Mecca for SCA fighters because it’s where it all started. The fighters there are literal SCA legends. and brutally hard fighters Anyway, long story short, I was talking about this afterwards to someone and they couldn’t believe I’d basically met a bunch of strangers, in a carpark, at night, in San Francisco, strapped on armour and fought hard enough to get serious bruising on my ribcage. Twice. But that’s just the way I roll :wink:

#43

If you mean the overbearing bullies who won’t take a time out call and refuse to cut new players any slack on account of immersion and ‘it’s all just roleplaying’ then I know exactly what you mean. This has certainly been a problem historically, but seems to be much less so at the moment.

To borrow from both Mandos and Derek, props and costumes are helpful for VISUAL immersion (i.e. “Eye Candy”) and I concur that games these days are much prettier than they used to be. This obviously isn’t a form of immersion that people find off-putting.

I think what is being referred to is what Derek found in the dictionary;

[quote=“Derek”]“state of being deeply engaged or involved; absorption” or “concentrating on one course of instruction, subject, or project to the exclusion of all others for several days or weeks”

So when people are talking about “immersion” in larp, what I think they’re getting at is that they like to get so deeply engaged in the game that they kind of forget about everything else. [/quote]

This is a level of immersion that I am personally uncomfortable around. I DON’T like that people can forget that there are real life reasons that they shouldn’t take certain actions - this leads to the aforementioned people who won’t take time out calls.

Immersion, like everything else, can be taken to extremes.

#44

Right. Ok, yes. I guess I do mean eye candy. So, maybe ‘immersion’ isn’t a good word, since as has now been pointed out, it means different things to different people. I looked at it to mean “the things we can do to make it a little less obvious that we’re pretending”. So, good costuming, set dressing and yes, staying in character.

Certainly I don’t think anyone should descend so far down the rabbit hole that they forget this isn’t real. :open_mouth:

#45

Ok, I bandy around the term “immersion” quite a lot. Here’s what I mean.

It’s not JUST eye candy. Not hardly. Not to me.

Immersion is creating a space and setting that allows people to fall as completely into character as possible. I want to do what I can to create an environment that allows people to forget they’re a middle aged computer programmer and feel that connection to the story, the setting and the actions of the other players.

Good costuming goes a long way toward creating immersion. When you put on good kit that you feel confident and comfortable in, and that suits the character, it provides that initial injection/inspiration/permission to stop being you and be someone else.

Good set dressing allows you to step back even further from the real world and fall into the setting.

Good storylines and well-paced games help you stay in character and keeps up the kind of momentum needed to have as many of those “thinking as your character, not you” moments that are like gold to me.

And good roleplaying from other people who are staying in character as much as possible further increases the chances of those awesome moments. The ones where the tears flow, or the adrenaline surges, or the cheeks flush from an actual blush or the blood hums with elation.

Immersion = feeling the moment.

#46

It’s probably just me but I still don’t understand what you mean. Can you spell it out in simple terms for me.

Thanks Nick.[/quote]

The words of others are more factual than mine. It should read, if you take away the “eye candy” you end up with tabletop.

On Immersion (not just eye candy), I find a much greater amount to be had in LARP than tabletop. So much so that I have ceased tabletop gaming in all but the most comical and bizarre one-off games, but no longer campaigns. Although that’s just me.

#47

I gave up tabletop because I got sick of waiting for my turn. In larp it’s always my turn :slight_smile:

#48

I gave up because of the cliquishness and the politics.

#49

I’d like to resurrect this discussion, in order to drag it back to Tetrajak’s original premise.

What I’m hearing is that larp has multiple appealing aspects, and that players have different preferences among these elements. I think that should be uncontroversial.

One person might really enjoy trying to achieve their character’s objectives, while another person might prefer trying to impress people with how they portray their character. Just a couple of specific examples, there are hundreds of other possible elements.

Tetrajak then attempts to group these elements into broad themes. Achieving objectives would be part of Game for example. I’m not sure where enjoying impressing people with your characterisation would sit - perhaps in Immersion? The advantage of such groups is that they are simple, so people can use them in conversation - “I like Narrative”. The disadvantage is that they lose precision. I might enjoy some things that could be considered Game elements, like fighting monsters, but dislike other Game elements, for example playing chess to defeat an enemy or having complex game rules for combat. Some enjoyable elements, like making a cool costume or impressing people with your acting, are hard to place into one of the groups with any meaning. However, if you add more groups then the advantages of simplicity are lost and you end up with a detailed scheme like Rob McDiarmid’s analysis of player motives in larp.

Personally, I think the most important point that Tetrajak made wasn’t the specific groupings he chose (because all such groupings are approximate and open to argument), it was that different people enjoy different sorts of larp, and it’s okay to create larps with specific audiences in mind. Jackie has said before that she doesn’t like trying “get stuff done” in larp, she prefers to focus on her characterisation. Personally, I hate feeling like my actions don’t matter, that some pre-determined Narrative is overruling them. But there is nothing wrong with a larp that focuses on character goals, or has a strong narrative - they’re just not everyone’s cup of tea.

When you’ve got enough larpers in a community, you can run larps with very specific focuses. Larps that have no Game-like aspects at all, perhaps. “A Serpent of Ash” sounds like an example of one, although I haven’t played or read it so can’t say for sure. So long as you advertise the style of game clearly so people know what they’re getting, it’s all good.

There’s nothing wrong with designing larps by trial and error, but it’s not the only option. You can decide on a specific style that you want to try to achieve, and design your larp specifically to emphasise elements that achieve that style. Having a model like Tetrajak’s one in mind can help in that regard. You can design with some assumptions in mind, and then see whether it works how you thought. If not, your assumptions might be wrong, or you might have implemented them poorly. It’s like in science, there’s the abstract model of the world and the actual observations of the world, and each informs the other.

#50

Also - if this sort of abstract discussion makes you go “bleh”, then just ignore it. Some people enjoy analysing things. If you prefer the “let’s just play” approach that’s cool too, but there’s no need to get down on people because they like to try to rationalise their gaming.

#51

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]When you’ve got enough larpers in a community, you can run larps with very specific focuses. Larps that have no Game-like aspects at all, perhaps. “A Serpent of Ash” sounds like an example of one, although I haven’t played or read it so can’t say for sure. So long as you advertise the style of game clearly so people know what they’re getting, it’s all good.

There’s nothing wrong with designing larps by trial and error, but it’s not the only option. You can decide on a specific style that you want to try to achieve, and design your larp specifically to emphasise elements that achieve that style.[/quote]

And that is in fact exactly what was done with “A Serpent of Ash”. The author was interested in testing a theory of larp (Mäkelä, Koistinen, Siukola and Turunen’s “Process Model”, in the KP05 book), and designed specifically with certain “benefits” in mind. Though the game was also supposed to be an experiment, to see which of the different suggested “processes” (competition, tension, challenge, exploration, immersion) would be pursued. Though because all the charactes are written to enable immersion, then that seems to be the feature most people take away from the larp. On the question of writing to a specific model, the author had this to say:

[quote=“J. Tuomas Harviainen”]
The significant thing is that according to direct feedback, this approach worked extremely well. And while it would be lovely to take all the credit as evidence of my larp design skills, the cold fact is that the game would have been much less a success, had I not followed the Process Model’s guidelines. As a checklist of potential goals the players might want (Benefits) and in-game approaches (Processes) they might want to follow, the Model is highly valuable.[/quote]

(That’s from his piece on the game, “testing larp theories and methods: results for year three”, in the KP07 book).

I guess what you can take away from this is that analysing larp isn’t just empty wank. It can be used to design better games.

#52

Be honest, LARPing is for the dressing up fun. Guys look cute in steampunk/Victorian gear and corsets are fun to wear.

I may be new to all this but I have formed an opinion on the subject - that LARPers are the way of the future. People who sit around online gaming or Wii’ing or Xboxing - Their social lives are limited. Their Vit D deficiencies are significant. Their wasted lower limbs of great concern.

You LARPers have fun, but you socialise and meet people in real life - how cool is that? You have such a community attitude on here, and in the LARP I attended and you are welcoming to newbies. Go you guys!

I am enjoying getting to know more about it and being absorbed bit by bit into the games. You guys are so efficient! Can’t get over the fantastic organisation at the Great Exhibition. Very impressive.

Chimera will be so much fun. I am looking forward to it. I am even moving my house moving date so it falls after Chimera so my costume planning does not get over shadowed by packing ! I suspect I may be falling for LARPing.

Tanya :slight_smile:

Neophyte.

#53

cute? 0.o

#54

Oh no, are you horrified by the terminology?

Alright, hot… does that offend? A guy in a suit, a Sherlock Holmes outfit, an alien head, or swashbuckling pirate shirt… all look great to me. I love dress ups. :slight_smile:

Is it an unspoken rule of LARPing that you can’t fancy anyone?

If it is I may have to leave LARPing as I already broke the rules :frowning:

#55

Heh, given that the National President met her partner at a larp, I think your’re safe :slight_smile:

#56

What’s not to like - everyone I met at the Great Exhibition on my first go at LARPing was delightful and friendly and fun to know.

“Jack Dawkins” - I have some photos of you if you want them
"William the inventor of the voting machine" /Michael in real life - I have a photo of you too, if you want it.

Also a few other people from Aether and Iron I don’t know.

Let me know if you want copies. :slight_smile:

Every few days I get more emails about character sheets and back stories and worlds for all the Chimera games I am signed up for. The get me all excited whenever they come through! Yay!

Tanya

#57

This is true for some players, but from experience this is the minority of those that actually will, or want, to play. The average player is not currently being catered for and therefore they do not turn up to play.

#58

Wheres that Alista? Hamilton? There arent many larps here its true.You are way off the mark in Auckland though, or Wellington. Lots of game there.

#59

In Hamilton the limited number of games is partly because of the smaller population base, but even so there are still three LRPs active down here, not counting Knightshade. But they are all aimed at groups that would not normally turn up to an Auckland style game.

#60

Ah yes, the unprovable assertion. I guess sprinkling salt around your house really does keep the elephants away.

There have been larps in Auckland that don’t focus on immersion or costume. Some players like this. I like it for variety now and then. But it doesn’t attract as many people as the larps that aim for good production values and immersive roleplay, which have been by far our largest games.

The opposite might be true of your circle of friends, but internationally larp with a focus on costume and immersion attracts the vast majority of the active larpers, and larp without attracts a smaller player base.

Personally, I think what you say is true of tabletop roleplayers and MMORPG players. Most of them are happy killing and looting stuff and leveling up, and not interested in much characterisation or immersion. It’s why D&D and WoW remain such favourites, they have very good support for challenging power-up gaming. In tabletop the immersion-focused roleplayers are a vocal minority. In larp, that’s only the case in situations where a bunch of tabletoppers (typically mostly guys) try larping together. Once it hits the wider audience of non-tabletoppers, you get a whole lot of people coming along specifically for things like the production values and the sense of immersion, or the depth of characterisation or acting.

EDIT: corrected some mistypes