[quote=“Ignifluous”]Sounds like a good scheme for the particular LARP you’re running. It’s is similar to my idea, but with x = 1, and <y|z|a|b|…> set in advance and declared. However, I suspect that is particularly suitable due to the developmental stage of LARP in Dunedin - similar to Ryan’s comments about now vs. way-back-when in Auckland/Hamilton/Wellington. It should serve to encourage costuming, storyline involvement, and continued character development after a game - habits that will ultimately start building and maturing the LARP community in Dunedin.[/quote]Yessss… That’s what I was thinking exactly
But thinking about it, you’re right. Hopefully it will step things up in those areas, and I may revisit the awards in the future to emphasise different aspects, which hasn’t been done around here before…
[quote=“Xcerus”]One is better than the other for out of character reasons.
Please justify why two identical characters should differ so greatly.[/quote]
Easy: because the mechanism through which XP is assigned is impacted by OOC considerations e.g. time, money, networks. Bob should have been informed of this up front, so he knows what to expect (i.e. that Tim will ascend the XP tree more quickly than Bob)
It’s not that different to fighting skills - those who invest time in training how to fight, and/or money in good weapons, do better than those that do not have the time, capability or money to do so. These are OOC considerations that have an impact on the IC results (if you can fight better, your character is are less likely to die).
Same goes for your ability to get along to daygames, where you can earn additional XP by participating.
Like it or not, OOC circumstances can indirectly impact the rate at which you gain XP, no matter the system used to determine XP.
Multiverse currently uses this reward approach for RP and costume, on top of a base thanks-for-turning-up XP, but I’m swayed by Derek and Ryan’s arguments on this. The larp culture here has developed significantly since Mordavia, and good costuming seems to be more attainable than it was when I first played in Mordavia back in 2003.
An argument in favour of usinga reward approach was provided by Prema in the other thread. She said she felt recognised and encouraged by the positive feedback, and I think that’s important, especially for our newer players.
Perhaps one option is to provide rewards to player groups as a whole, based on the overall vibe of the group (with a bias towards rounding up rather than down). That way, Bob’s reward could be rounded up by Tim’s extra-awesome costume.
RP XP OTOH is an entirely subjective thing, making it even harder to assess. Again, we could use the vibe of the player group as well.
This approach would engender increase intragroup player cooperation, which is probably a good thing for a our larping culture.
I think the subtle roleplayers are exactly why we have the nominations. People do recognize the subtle roleplayers through their interactions with them even when a Gm might miss it. I fully believe that subtle roleplaying needs to be rewarded just as much as out there roleplaying.
As for this culture of excellence, when I was looking around Teonn it was mostly fantastic and amazing costumes all around, yet there were experienced roleplayers with all the right connections to borrow gear who just did not put the effort in to even hide their modern clothing. That really put me off, it spoiled the immersion of it. Most of us do believe in making costumes for the sakes of our characters, not everybody. I think that XP rewards are one of the only ways to encourage those people who can’t be bothered putting any effort in to at least make a minimal effort. For some people the OOC kudos just isn’t a motivator, with a flexi xp system you have both systems of motivation in effect.
To make this system less biased and offputting we simply need to foster a better culture of taking care of each other, encouraging roleplaying and helping people improve their costume.
One thing that used to annoy me with handing out XP and which kept me away from flat rate Xp were the people who simply didn’t put any real effort into their Rp or costume. Why reward them for being slack? Of course this is fair shakey in moral terms and can end smacking of favouritism/nepotism. Some people simply don’t have the resources or nous to do well in reward based larp. Its also a fairly nightmarish thing in terms of logistics.
I guess in the end though, as a GM you have to be happy with the system you use and hope your players like it or find other reasons to come to your game such as its a cool larp in which most people make a good effort for their own benefit and for the benefit of others. (I don’t larp for XP, its just cool to have).
Methinks it would be a good idea to have a section in the proposed “Game Organisers Guide” (or perhaps a separate Campaign Organisers Guide?), which contains a “balanced” (heh) discussion of these varied points of view, and some of the various systems that have been used, to help GMs think through what they feel is appropriate for their game?
I would like to thank the following for even trying to answer my question:
Mike Curtis…
Seriously - if you had read a book about two identical twins who traveled the same path through life and the only difference was the colour of their armor and when they fought each other in the final battle the only reason one of them won was because of his green armor instead of his red armor you would seriously doubt the authors mental stability. Unless colour happend to be a sign of magical power perhaps aka paranoia where friend computer assists the superior color…
The reason only one person has directly responded to your original scenario is because such a thing simply does not and will not happen. Theoryhammer (to borrow from wargaming) is all well and good but in the end it’s actually DOING the thing that is important.
There have been plenty of theories bandied around in this thread and others which answer the question you asked; it’s just not the answer you want.
In the Real World™ - can you even use that term when talking about a LARP? if Twin A is getting more XP for his super-duper costume than Twin B, then either Twin B will accept that his life is richer in other ways (for example, having kids and a family) or he will find some other way to get the XP he so desperately craves
I didn’t answer, because I couldn’t think of an argument that would justify this.
At the end of the day, this is less important to me than the flavor of toothpaste I use. Really, anyone who loses sleep over something like this, needs a bit of a reality check…
But as an academic exercise, and a view inside other peoples heads, it is interesting
My personal opinion is that every advantage should be given to the beginner and not to the experienced player. But that may just be a hang up from too much SCA combat. In SCA combat we don’t get XP or special combat skills, we improve solely by getting better at fighting. The culture of the game is such that as a person with a lot of experience, I’m not going to seek an advantage over a beginner. If they had a sword and no shield, I would discard my shield before I fought them. I don’t want a rules advantage over another player by virtue of prior experience.
While Adam’s example is a bit contrived, it does illustrate very clearly the “run away effect” that getting more XP will have with two reasonably equal characters. I agree with him, I cannot find an argument to justify this that I agree with.
If, as Nikki mentioned in another thread, the range of awards is between 1 and 6 for Teonn, then after three games there could be a difference of 15XP between two characters. That’s an entire starting character gap in skills (minus the bonuses for paths). I personally think that is too much of a difference.
I believe a difference of 1XP is enough, especially if it’s done openly and awarded for specific things like “best costume”, “cooking a sheep”, “building lots of sexy crew costumes” and such like.
On a mild tangent. As a player whose costume was pretty much thrown together, begged and borrowed, the awesome costumes around me are a massive push for me to up my game on the costume front.
XP, not so much.
When it comes to characters and abilities, it really depends on how you want to play as to whether XP is important at all, which in turn makes it hard to use as a driver to good behaviour. For example I would be happy playing in the next Teonn game with the character I played last time with no change in abilities at all. I accept others may not be in the same boat but it means that XP may not be a driver toward improvement while I suspect, witnessing awesome role-playing and seeing great costumes are good drivers.
So as a newbie with little experience (feel free to ignore me on those grounds ) I think Flat XP is a much better system and use peer pressure to drive behaviours.
XP allocation seldom represents real life well, no matter what it’s awarded for.
In real life, people get better/richer/elevated because of experience/luck/talent/ambition/hard work. They seldom achieve those things (especially skill improvements) because they happened to be present for a day or two when something interesting happened (in OOC larp terms, “attended an event”). They mostly get it by training.
If I heard a story about identical twins, one of whom got an improved life while the other didn’t, I’d assume that one had better experience/luck/talent/ambition/hard work. I would guess that the author might have dramatic reasons for it. I would be terribly surprised if identical twins lived exactly the same life and developed in exactly the same manner, whether in a story or real life. Their different lives (including differences in the womb, where twins can receive different nutrients, etc) could easily explain any differences in development, even if said differences happen “off stage”, i.e. not during the main narrative.
If you wanted an XP system that reflected real life and stories, then skills would mostly come from characters having some innate talent, finding an environment and teachers that helps them train, training like buggery, and practicing their skills a lot. It’s very unusual for RPGs to award XP in this manner.
Neither XP for costume nor XP for just being at events is good for representing how training leads to skill, but I don’t think that matters. It can all be rationalised very easily.
The twin who improves more quickly could be said to have had better opportunities or experiences between games. Voilà, instant IC rationalisation for whatever OOC reasons exist for handing out XP.
It’s for this reason that I think that only OOC reasoning for handing out XP needs to be considered, not IC. The IC situation can easily be rationalised.
On the contrary, while i do of course notice the louder player, sometimes my favourite reactions are the quiet subtle ones.
I only ever GMed refuge, so i had a lot of time to just watch which is vastly different from something like teonn, but I think i actually noticed the subtle quiet characters more.
[quote=“Mike Curtis”]Perhaps one option is to provide rewards to player groups as a whole, based on the overall vibe of the group (with a bias towards rounding up rather than down). That way, Bob’s reward could be rounded up by Tim’s extra-awesome costume.
RP XP OTOH is an entirely subjective thing, making it even harder to assess. Again, we could use the vibe of the player group as well.
This approach would engender increase intragroup player cooperation, which is probably a good thing for a our larping culture.[/quote]
I find myself very attracted to this notion. We seem to be in a paradigm where xp is given as reward for good costuming and roleplaying. Giving this sort of bonus out to a group would add several benefits. It would encourage groups to wear cohesive costumes, which creates an awesome visual spectacle when done well. It would also encourage groups to engage in roleplayinging as a group. In some roleplaying encounters, merely being present as a member of a group may be important to add to the atmosphere. E.g. noble and their guard, or bandit leader and their band.
One problem I have with giving xp solely for good costumes and roleplaying, is that at the high end it is reinforcing, but at the low end it is punitive. On a scale of 1-6 that Teonn is using, getting 6xp clearly indicates to the player that they were awesome in both aspects. Getting 3-4 xp indicates you had an average game. However, getting 1 or 2 xp is the same as saying you lose 2 or 1 (or more) xp for not being average enough (and miles away from being awesome).
If 1-2 xp for a weekend game is going to be given out only rarely (to those who come in jeans and a t-shirt and don’t talk to anyone), then other means other than not getting xp need to be raised - going and talking to them and offering help with costumes (out of game) and roleplaying (in game). Simply not giving them the average rate of xp is passively saying “you’re not good enough,” without doing anything to address this issue.
To avoid this issue, a scale of 3-6 would suffice.
There has also been mention of beginner xp, or most improved roleplayer xp. I also like this idea, as it offers to new players an extra leg up to get them started.
My personal opinion is that flexible xp is an inappropriate way to encourage better costuming and roleplaying. Semi flexible, e.g. with “best roleplayers” and “best costumes” awards might work, but they would work no better than simply having certificates and a mention in a dedicated forum post (not to dissimilar to sports prizes). Peer praise is the best reinforcer for good costumes and roleplaying, the better with flattering photos as evidence. Also, peer support and encouragement is the best help for those who are lacking in good costumes or not engaging in roleplaying to a satisfactory extent.
But where does that leave xp? Do you just get a flat rate for turning up? Is this a problem?
One thing that might work, which I mentioned in another post, is receiving in game benefits. Nobles or religious figures might only talking to those who are well dressed. Spirits, deities, bandit leaders or mentors imparting gifts to those who they deem worthy, tell them secrets or teach rare skills. Perhaps the characters even have to spend xp to keep these things, or perhaps not. This sort of reward encourages more engagement with the fictional world, and the benefits come from the world at the time they were earned (not from an OOC GM months after the game happened).
These are not mutually exclusive, of course. Perhaps having some fixed xp, a small amount of flexible xp, and in game rewards might achieve the best result.
Walter, you always come with interesting suggestions. I do have couple of comments though.
For me having less XPs than expected is more of a kick “hey, you can do better than that!” and rather encouraging for self-development. Am I the only one who thinks that way?
That actually sounds cool, but if I was acting that way as the Magistrate of Cormere, I’d have to hang half of the nobles
I think that group related xp is a terrible idea. “So if I form a group with potentially less experienced/weaker roleplayers in order to encourage them, I might get less xp?” If you need any more reward than the good roleplaying for being part of a group of good roleplayers, you may be in the wrong hobby. It also may encourage the stronger roleplayers to stick together, potentially making one “super-group”.
Secondly, for me, I think flexi xp acts as a disincentive. I put together the best costume I reasonably could, and roleplayed the best I could for Teonn. Any mark less than 6 reflects how much my best isn’t good enough. If I get less than a certain amount I won’t be at the next game, because obviously my best is substandard. I roleplay for the enjoyment (and character development is part of that enjoyment) of it, not to be judged by my peers.
Lastly giving low xp doesn’t really give any feedback as to what the player has done wrong. If there is costuming that doesn’t cut it, you are better off to say to the player what they need to improve for the next game, in order not to lose xp, as opposed to just docking the player xp with no explanation. If you want an improvement you need to give feedback as to how the player can improve, not just dock them xp, and take the easy way out.
To answer, no that would not be a good thing to happen to Bob.
However, it’s a trivial example. I suspect that there would be no GM who sets out to penalise anyone because their costume is SLIGHTLY less elaborate than anyone elses.
However if Bob turns up in “costume” that clearly shows that he made no effort, then why should he receive a full lot of XP?
Naturally, as many people have said, it comes down to what are you trying to achieve by awarding XP in the first place.
Encourage participation?
Allow people to improve their characters?
In real terms, it comes down to how did my costume/roleplaying improve the game for anyone else? And how is that rewarded… i get an AWFUL lot out of the ego boost of seeing photos and other people telling me they enjoyed roleplaying with me. I try to do the same for others because I know that’s great for other people.
That’s a reward in and of itself.
As others have said, I do think that a base rate of about 4 would be fine, then adding more as a small reward for costume/roleplaying. Or just general coolness…
But yes, no feedback doesn’t help one improve. But that feed back probably can’t come from the GMs. Since they would not have been there for the majority of what happened. But giving people permission to post PRIVATE feedback to one could be useful…
Like, PM someone “Hey, you really didn’t participate that much, don’t be shy next time, come and talk to people!”?
The only problem is, if they don’t interact with people, how would people know they are there?
I’m confused
When I started playing Mordavia, I always got 1 XP for costume. 2 XP meant your costume was really cool and authentic, but mine never was. I couldn’t afford chain mail so I used a cheap plastic mesh that looked a bit “mithralesque”. Did it motivate me to upgrade my kit ? No. Times were tough back then (I was a bit like Bob - kids, mortgage etc). Eventually I got enough XP to afford plate armour, and I was lucky enough to find an inexpensive source of sheet copper*, so I could make my own.
This year I decided to invest in my costume for Sir Xenith, mainly because we are friends with the Lead Designer from Legend of the Seeker, and she has a warehouse full of amazing costumes.
Adam is right - you can’t always control your costuming situation, and it might take time some before you can invest in quality costume.
The concept is that if a majority of them make a good effort, then the whole group can benefit. Some people respond to being part of a team effort (typically, the people who seek out group membership in the first place), and this is way of encouraging the positive aspects of costuming using a carrot rather than a stick. It neatly deals with the dilemma that Adam outlined at the beginning of this thread. I actually think some senior larpers might actually relish the challenge of developing a group of newbies, and this proposal would act as an attractor because a senior larper would weight the XP in a positive direction (because they would likely have good gear).
The super-group outcome is fine too. It means that if newbies join the super-group, they get the benefit of the culture of costuming in that group, even though they might not have the best gear themselves. If the GMs warn a group that their costuming is marginal, this would spur them into action to create more and better stuff.
The roleplaying assessment is a lot more problematic. If RP ability is a driver of XP, I would have thought it prudent for GMs to ensure that they include distinct plothooks for each and every newbie. The more senior larpers can pretty much be guaranteed to RP at a high level. Kara, Gaffy, Lucy, Derek, Anna, Ryan, Tigger, Adam, Zara, Prema, Vanya, Jared, Jackie** etc - these guys always turn out fantastic performances, so your don’t really need to put that much effort into assessing them. Instead, you need to focus on assessing the newbies, since you need the data, and also because it helps grow the community if new participants feel integrated into the setting.
A big consideration is on the weighting of these scores. In Mordavia, you got an Attendance XP amount (7 for first weekend game, 5 for second etc), plus the RP and costumer amounts (0-2 each). In you character’s first game, it wasn’t a major if you didn’t get max RP/Costume scores, and the more advance your character was, the more motivation you had to invest in costume.
I’m not sure what the Teonn model is, but if it is RP & Costume only, then I hope that the GMs approach of “let’s ask the community on diatribe” is one that is additional to their assessments, rather than the the assessment process itself.
I went to a scrap metal yard and enquired about sheet copper. They guy said “We never get sheet copper, don’t waste your time looking”. I asked I we could check, just in case. The look on his face when the bin turned out to be full of sheet copper was priceless. I bought as much as I could afford.
** Apologies about the brevity of the list, it was a top-of-mind thing…
