Justify Flat rate or Flexi Rate xp!

Community Larp discussion
#1

I do agree that people should be all treated differently based on their ability or talent I just think that larping is one of those hobbies where yes its amazing when people go all out and there should be rewards for people who try hard (like at chimera with the best costume and best role player awards).

However I do not feel that variable xp has a place in a campaign game. Let me explain why:

Lets take Tim and Bob. (Ficticious characters)
Tim and Bob are Twins, they both have the same appearence - same voice, and unlike alot of twins are both infact identical. So for this scenario we will actually refer to them as clones.

In the real world Tim has a fantastic job as a prop designer. He only works 3 days a week builing props for a tv show. The rest of the week he has to himself.

Bob also has a fantastic job in the real world as a prop designer. However Bob is also married with 3 chidlren unlike his clone Tim who is single with no children (but loves it that way) Bob is very happy with his life but it does not leave him with much free time.

So Tim and bob being clones create the same character for the event. Same background, same race same xp expenditure - same gear. They role up to the event and Bob waves goodby to his family for the weekend while they play.

Tim’s kit is alot better than bob’s - the hours put into the gear really have paid off and it looks amazing.

Bob’s gear is good, but having to look after his family and take his children to school and watch over the little one has left him with much less free time than Tim. His gear looks the same but doesn’t have that perfected finnish that Bob’s does.

Anyway - the game starts and they both go at it as clones do - both roleplay with the same people the same way, both go on the same quests and both fight the same nasty creatures. Their characters fight side by side through out a long campaign and eventually they come to a massive battle.

During the campaign Tim’s kit has resulted in him getting slightly more xp than Bob. This means that over time he has accelerated away from Bob and can now call quadruple venom poison strikes with his sword. Bob has just bought the ability to do a strike attack…

Two characters that have done exactly the same thing through out a campaign have fought side by side practically walked in the same shoes.

One is better than the other for out of character reasons.

Please justify why two identical characters should differ so greatly.

Remember what I am asking here is not is it better to have flat rate or flexi rate xp but - How you justify two identical characters after several months of gameplay being totally unmatched xp wise simply because of their costumes…

#2

At least variable XP gives some motivation for people to improve their costume. Sure, often it takes a long time to get there but if you have the will it is possible to pull something amazing off, or at least something reasonable. There needs to be this motivation to guide people away from wearing horribly modern clothing in a fantasy setting. This improves the level of immersion, making it better for the overall game and the community because that person now has something that is reasonable for future characters that is not obviously modern at least.

#3

A good point until you take into account that the person in question may have come close to bancrupting themselves on their costume only for their character to then die. What to do then?
Start a new costume and eat baked beans on toast for rest of life - or just wear the same costume over and over…

#4

I give the example of when Robza wanted to join the Pirate game at Chimera but had no costume. Half of us were tripping over each other giving him costume. You do not have to bankrupt yourself but if you put in effort you can find a costume. If you can’t make or buy then more often than not, you can borrow. A whole lot of the larping community are more than happy to help people make costume and props or lend them from their own collections.

#5

A very valid point. If you are part of a large faction or have good links to the community yes there are people out there who can help.

Back to the point here which is:

Justify how two characters who have done exactly the same thing since creation have different skill levels and abilities.

#6

Firstly, the community will help any newbie, not just those with good links. We’ve all been newbies and had a helping hand at one point or another. All you need to do is make a post on diatribe, or ask someone in person.

As for the two characters, your question is very leading and you’ve assumed quite a few premises. What is rewarded is effort, this does not mean that everybody has to make everything by hand, they can ask for help, they can barter and trade with other people. The twin could have asked the other twin to help him out with his costume since the other one had such a great one. If you put in the effort, the effort should be rewarded. Variable Xp encourages people to put the effort in, in the first place. Later, once you have some costuming, props and the skills to obtain them the Xp reward becomes less important but it is still a good recognition for that effort.

#7

[quote=“Uncle Vanya”]Firstly, the community will help any newbie, not just those with good links. We’ve all been newbies and had a helping hand at one point or another. All you need to do is make a post on diatribe, or ask someone in person.

As for the two characters, your question is very leading and you’ve assumed quite a few premises. What is rewarded is effort, this does not mean that everybody has to make everything by hand, they can ask for help, they can barter and trade with other people. The twin could have asked the other twin to help him out with his costume since the other one had such a great one. If you put in the effort, the effort should be rewarded. Variable Xp encourages people to put the effort in, in the first place. Later, once you have some costuming, props and the skills to obtain them the Xp reward becomes less important but it is still a good recognition for that effort.[/quote]

Again - you have missed the point a little here.

Justify to me the power difference between the two characters involved. Not the players. The characters.

#8

Ah Philosophy! You have to love it.

It’s up to the GMs…
…and I imagine they’re doing it because they believe it’ll have a positive affect on the game.

On the one hand, I can understand the idea that “by rewarding good behaviour we are encouraging it”. Essentially, pick out those people who stood out give them more XP. This is the capitalist ideal and it works well for the people at the top.

The counter to this of course is that we are disadvantaging the people who didn’t shine. This might encourage them to lift their game or it might just discourage them to the point where they think “1xp, I can’t do anything with that, I don’t think I’ll play any more…”. Is that likely? Good? Bad? We can all have an opinion here… :smiley:

Here is a thought to consider:
The experienced players, with the cool costumes, will be coming back next game even if they get the same XP as everyone else. They might be slightly motivated by more XP but they’re probably more motivated by the online photo albums. They’re creatures of vanity, every one of them.

And another thought:
n00bs need XP as much (or more) than experience players. They need to pick up a few extra combat skills just to get them on par with the experienced players. How about we give bonus XP for people on their first game? Maybe we even give extra character generation points to people who are playing their first larp? How about a bonus HP on your first game? They’re always in short supply :wink:

I’m personally in favour of flat XP because it’s simple and transparent. It’ll never be subject to nepotism; and it’s not subject to good play falling through the cracks because the people who witnessed it aren’t on diatribe.

But at the end of the day, I don’t care much. I’m not really that motivated by XP, I’d happily play in games that didn’t do XP at all.

#9

Your argument is a little flawed Adam. Reasonably, 2 very good costumed characters with the same quality of RP would in fact get the same XP. The difference between very good and exceptional is minor. It might be worth 1XP if the GM’s are being very harsh. Even over a campaign of games 6XP is unlikely to leave characters that far apart.

I think what is of more interest is the difference between those who do put in a massive effort and those that don’t. I DO believe those who make a effort should be rewarded to encourage others to do the same. But I would suggest that maybe this shouldn’t always mean more XP. But what recognition should we include? In game kudos is good. And OOC kudos after the game is also good. But more often than not, I think a lot of the time the good RPers and good costumers will continue to do so because they love what they do. A physical reward could work too (but has its own issues).

As a GM who has used RP and costume to assign XP, I have found it very frustrating to work out XP on such a variable scale. Just like anything there are the haves and have nots in costuming ability and also in roleplaying ability. There are also people who don’t really make any effort. A flat rate doesn’t reward the skilled or those who have made genuine effort. Even the slackers. But it is easy to deal with.

Another argument is that there are the haves and the have nots in reality, so why not in larp? Naturally those with ability or resources and effort will be better than those without. Is it fair? Well one might ask is life fair? Umm no. But its reality.

The end point is, if the GM’s of a game wish to adjudicate a rewarding XP system then power to them. You will never please everyone.

#10

This is your assumption that may not be held by everone - whether xp is given out to the character or the player. Yes xp is spent on the character, but it is the player that does the spending, so must be given to the player. Philosphy at work.

#11

[quote=“Derek”]

It’s up to the GMs…
…and I imagine they’re doing it because they believe it’ll have a positive affect on the game.

On the one hand, I can understand the idea that “by rewarding good behaviour we are encouraging it”. Essentially, pick out those people who stood out give them more XP. This is the capitalist ideal and it works well for the people at the top.

The counter to this of course is that we are disadvantaging the people who didn’t shine. This might encourage them to lift their game or it might just discourage them to the point where they think “1xp, I can’t do anything with that, I don’t think I’ll play any more…”. Is that likely? Good? Bad? We can all have an opinion here… :smiley:

Here is a thought to consider:
The experienced players, with the cool costumes, will be coming back next game even if they get the same XP as everyone else. They might be slightly motivated by more XP but they’re probably more motivated by the online photo albums. They’re creatures of vanity, every one of them.

And another thought:
n00bs need XP as much (or more) than experience players. They need to pick up a few extra combat skills just to get them on par with the experienced players. How about we give bonus XP for people on their first game? Maybe we even give extra character generation points to people who are playing their first larp? How about a bonus HP on your first game? They’re always in short supply :wink:

I’m personally in favour of flat XP because it’s simple and transparent. It’ll never be subject to nepotism; and it’s not subject to good play falling through the cracks because the people who witnessed it aren’t on diatribe.

But at the end of the day, I don’t care much. I’m not really that motivated by XP, I’d happily play in games that didn’t do XP at all.[/quote]

Thats nicely put Derek. A nice balanced reply. Better than mine but I think the ideas are the same.

#12

Personally, I think it’s important to consider the present culture of the community.

When Mordavia first started, there was a lot of quite basic costume, roleplaying, and plot-making going down among the participants. I decided to reward good attempts at these things to encourage a movement towards a culture of excellence in gear, roleplaying, and plot-generating play. I stand by that decision, although it was a headache to administer and probably could have been dropped toward the end of the campaign.

Nowadays, I think the Auckland and Wellington larp communities have that culture of excellence in spades. As lots of people have noted, these days we reward all of those things with heaps of positive attention. I can only see that increasing from here, as our skills at achieving these things continue to improve.

So we don’t need to reward character points for these things any more, they are already ingrained in the culture. As Derek, Jared and Adam have noted, there are some drawbacks to giving XP rewards for OOC stuff. It can result in issues for new players, for players who aren’t well known or liked, for the GMs, and for the consistency of the IC world. I think that those drawbacks outweigh the advantages these days, given the current culture of excellence in the community.

#13

In regards to Tim and Bob, you’re assuming that they have nothing else to fall back on, cept their costumes.

There is no way that the OP would ever exist, sure, we can think that it might, but after the first game, Bob will be thinking “Hang on, I don’t have the time / money to put into my costume, but Tim is getting more xp for his costume. I’ll put more effort into RP’ing, and I’ll differentiate myself from him, do my own path stuff and get more xp for RP’ing”

I’m not going to join a different group just cause they might have more plot involvement, i’m not going to go out and spend more money on props / costumes for my charactor, because he looks and acts exactly how I want him to. Some character concepts can be completed with little effort (Loin cloth @ Refuge!) - But then people can be super awesome with costuming (Alfah @ Teonn). What we should be more focused on, rather than specifically looking at how awesome gear looks - is how it reflects the character.

I know it is super hard for GM’s to decide on plot stuff and I like how that throughout the Teonn weekend (my first major weekend larp) was the fact that although there was the main story arc (marvin) where most of the “Main” partipants (the initial dream) was full of experienced, good role players, there was also personally tailored sub plots and involvements for newbies like myself. Sure it wasn’t going to reflect on the main game plot, but it changed my character slightly. Now the game is winding up to the next one, I’ll be preparing myself better and trying to get involved in more of the main plot stuff.

#14

How about balancing the pros & cons of each approach, and using a hybrid? (Long post, for I am not give to natural succinctness … summary at the bottom)

For example …

GMs make up three numbers x, y, z.

x is a medium-large sized number (5-8, probably), and is “standard experience” - an abstraction of the ways a character would have developed from experiencing the events of the game (and yes, it might be issued to the player, not the character, but to the best of my understanding, this is the abstraction represented by the XP mechanic).

y is a small number (1 or 2, probably), and is “reward experience”, given to recognise players who put in extra effort to their costuming.

z is a small number (1 or 2, probably), and is “reward experience”, give to recognise players who put in extra effort to their roleplaying.

Thus, following a weekend game of “Forgotten Futures from the Distant Past”, the GMs sit down and decide x=5 (“Hah, but if they’d snorgled the Thayamalion, we’d have given them 7!”), y=2 (“The overall level of costuming was a little disappointing, and messed with immersion a bit, but there were a few you’d definitely put significant effort in”; alternatively, 1 would likely mean “There was heaps of awesome costumes, but there were a couple of exceptionally good ones”), z=1 (“The RP was fantastic this weekend, but there were definitely a couple of standout performances”).

Thus, everyone receives 5 xp, those that had demonstrated an attention to costuming are given a bonus 2xp, and those that went above and beyond with their RP receive an additional 1xp.

Of course, this may be what GMs already do, but having never received XP yet (I didn’t join Wolfgang’s till the last game), I have no point of reference on which to speculate. Hence this is all thought experiments on my part.

If this scheme is approached in the right manner, then I believe it can be balanced quite well.

For example:

  • If there is a general high standard of <costuming|roleplaying>, you raise x, and probably set <y|z>=1, to give some extra encouragement and recognition to those who were “best of the best”, while still rewarding everyone for their efforts via x. This covers the circumstances Ryan describes as common today.
  • If there was a more average standard of <costuming|roleplaying>, but a few players who really took things to the next level, you might set x to a more moderate level, and set <y|z>=2, to recognise those that stood out and performed well above the average. This covers the circumstances Ryan describes as common “way back when”.

y & z should always be kept small relative to x. They are, in a sense, “token rewards”, offering options rather than power. This means that talented RP/costumers don’t totally outstrip the reset of the players, wielding the aforementioned quadruple venom poison strikes (and a host of abilities like it), as y/z are not in themselves enough to purchase the superpowered abilities. But over several games gives consistent performers some extra options to reward their efforts.

Sure, that means if a player saves their XP, and consistently earns the y/z bonuses, in the final game of “Forgotten Futures from the Distant Past” they may have a “Zorland Twinge”, a “Scarlet Marbled Hornswoggle”, and the ability to “Xandify” twice daily. Whereas a player who has only ocassionally earned a y/z bonus may only have a “Blued Marbled Hornswoggle”, a “Ball of Electrified String”, and the ability to “Gkquur’gli” three times max at one hour intervals. But everyone who’s played the entire length of the campaign will still be at a high character “level” as it were. The spread (assuming, say, 7 games, average x=6,y=1,z=1) would be between 42-56 xp earned over the campaign - this might mean 3 super mega abilities instead of 2, for example. Which is good. It creates differences between characters, it creates your meatshields, your inspiring leaders, your dervishes. It also creates your shield wall, your rallying points, your skilled swordsmen.

Summary
Og say, everyone get heap big XP (x = 5-8?)
Og say, probably some people extra awesome costume among lots fantastic costumes, give 1 XP bonus (y)
Og say, probably some people extra awesome roleplay among lots fantastic roleplaying, give 1 XP bonus (z)
Og say, everyone get heap big XP, extra awesome people get tiny bit extra.
Og say, this mean everypeople powerful, but extra awesome people get options, more than power, as their reward.
Og say, mighty prophet Uncle Ben say, great XP assigning power come with great XP assigning responsibility.
Og say, this mean y/z small relative to x, and probably balanced so that both everypeople (x & x+<y|z) can enter level2/level3 abilities at about the same time.
Og say, and there was harmony between all people.
Og say, and it was good.
Og also say, but my word is not Final, nor particular well informed, nor necessarily clever or correct.
Og thus say, question/opinion/constructive criticism very good.

#15

Ignoring costume for a moment, I would pose that how much someone’s roleplaying “stands out” doesn’t necessarily reflect how well they were playing the character. While giving xp for roleplay quality sounds like a good idea in principle, it is almost certain to reward louder characters over more subtle ones, simply because their roleplaying is more obvious. This isn’t anyone’s fault - it’s just an unavoidable flaw of a system based on other peoples’ perceptions - but it will disadvantage (and ultimately discourage) certain types of characters, which is rarely a good thing.

EDIT: Also, in my experience systems like this don’t so much encourage people to do better as discourage those who aren’t as skilled. When you try your best but just aren’t as good as others, and they get mechanically rewarded for it, you tend to start feeling like no matter what you do you’ll just keep falling further and further behind. After a while, that can easily lead to “well if I’m not going to get the xp for it anyway, why bother trying?”

#16

A fair point.

Perhaps, “reward xp” could only be issued to a few players? Say a 1 xp bonus to the four best costumes, and a 1 xp bonus to the four best character-roleplayers? Yes, I realise … “But what if there’s five awesome costumes?”. But by limiting this award to only a very few, it becomes a prize worth working towards, as opposed to an automatic award. That said, we don’t want our community to become “combatively competitive” for such purposes …

I guess, perhaps, that what we’re saying is not that we want to recognise fantastic acting/“RP”. We want recognise people who, through their costume and RP, made the game better for everyone else. Sort of like a MVL (Most Valuable Larper) award (I say “Most”, but that’s just convention - I imagine several of these MVL xp awards would be issued at xp time).

Does this sounds like the concept people are trying to express?

And sticking with the sports metaphor, maybe a MIL (Most Improved Larper) award too :slight_smile:

#17

First things first:

[quote]Og say, mighty prophet Uncle Ben say, great XP assigning power come with great XP assigning responsibility.[/quote]sig’ed!! :laughing:

OK, back on topic. I’m starting up a campaign LARP early next year (V:tR, running every two weeks) and I plan to use a hybrid system, which is basically a flat rate, plus well-defined bonuses which everyone knows about and (most importantly, IMO) are easy to achieve. This is how I’m working it so far:
[ul][li]1 XP for turning up[/li]
[li]1 XP if you are in costume. (ANY costume. Jeans and a t-shirt don’t count… unless you’re a jeans and a t-shirt kinda character. In which case you have to make some kind of costuming effort)[/li]
[li]1 XP if someone nominates you for roleplaying at any point during the night, for any reason[/li]
[li]2 XP if your downtime is in before the first deadline[/li]
[li]1 XP if your downtime is in before the second deadline[/li]
[li]1-3 XP if your character advances one of the main plotlines, as determined by the Storytellers[/li][/ul]
So basically, it’s a flat 5 XP per session if you turn up, have some kind of costume, get nominated for roleplaying (by anyone, for any reason), and get your downtime in on time. I agree with some of the previous posts that say outstanding RPing is it’s own reward (and I don’t think we’ll get too many - if any - outstanding costumes… PROVE ME WRONG KIDS :wink: )

If the criteria are up front and public, I think there is a lot less debate about the merits of the system, and you can encourage the behaviour you want.

Viperion

#18

That, to me, is the essential point of flexi-xp systems.

#19

Sounds like a good scheme for the particular LARP you’re running. It’s is similar to my idea, but with x = 1, and <y|z|a|b|…> set in advance and declared. However, I suspect that is particularly suitable due to the developmental stage of LARP in Dunedin - similar to Ryan’s comments about now vs. way-back-when in Auckland/Hamilton/Wellington. It should serve to encourage costuming, storyline involvement, and continued character development after a game - habits that will ultimately start building and maturing the LARP community in Dunedin.

It does, I suppose, raise a very good point - if the assignment of some XP is going to be for costume & RP, and the purpose of assigning that XP in that manner is to encourage costuming & RP effort, why not announce the particulars in advance, as Viperion is doing? What is lost by doing this? Flexibility in assignment/quantity of XP, I suppose, but this could be circumvented by announcing a range, e.g. Players recognised for awesome RP could receive a 1-3 xp bonus.

However, if the purpose is not to encourage costuming/RP effort, but merely to reward/recognise it (yes, I think the two are somewhat different), then perhaps an MVL/MIL system could be more useful. This allows for the more amorphous criteria in play (as Viperion has shown, simple criteria can be set when the goal is to encourage people to step up their game; it is harder to set criteria to recognise exceptional performances from those already operating to a moderately high standard) and encourages costume/RP to improve the LARP in question as a whole(via immersion, PC-generated plot etc…) via the Muchly Valued Larper xp awards, while also continuing to recognise and encourage those new to LARPing, or who have really stepped up their game, via the Muchly Improved Larper xp awards.

Out of curiosity, I would like to know people’s thoughts (particular from a Auck/Tron/Wngtn perspective; no offence South Islanders, we do love you, really), about my musing in the above post. To paraphrase:

Do people agree with that statement? Thoughts/comments/gentle reprimands welcome :slight_smile:

(I ask because it’s hard to work out how best to implement XP for a particular LARP, without knowing what it is we are trying to achieve!)

#20

LOL, mostly I don’t like photos, but I’ll completely agree with the point. I costume because I adore creating and wearing them. A role begins with a costume idea for me, and then the character gets built around it. Purdy and different clothing/jewellery/makeup ideas light fireworks in my brain. There was no chance, for example, that in Teonn I was going to be anything but an Elemental. Exp is great stuff, to be sure, but it has little to do with why I create my larp folk.

I do think that the point made earlier (sorry, not sure where) that the exp for roleplay penalises subtle or quieter characters is true. How many of you noticed Adam as Zog, but can’t even remember most of the other orc’s names? Was it because “they aren’t as good at rp” or because they were overpowered by a larger than life leader? (by the way Adam, this is not a criticism of Zog, who was, in fact, brilliant).

Not everyone in a larp can sparkle or be noticed by all 59 other players. I think Ryan is right, we have created a culture of excellence where making no effort is considered a grave failing, but being new or shy should not be.

Anyway, I think I’m merely repeating what others are saying, so I’ll go back to creating Zephy’s summer dress for January. It has feathers. :mrgreen: