Issues with Alcohol at Larps

nzLARPS
#181

I like a quiet drink or two (or three) in the socialising period of a LARP.

To the best of my knowledge, I’ve never drunk so much at a LARP as to inconvenience anyone else. (In another context, I have, in the manner of an experiment. It taught me much…)

Here’s what I plan to do.

I will explicitly request a friend or three to let me know if I’ve had too much. I have a number of friends who do this already and suggest water. (Thanks Bryn!) And I will be available to other friends (or strangers!) to do the same.

I will continue to bring food like cheese and crackers to events for down time consumption.

I will continue to bring some non-alcoholic beverages for my and probably others consumption.

I will try to help the LARP organisers have water or non-alcoholic beverages obviously available to intersperse with alcohol. Taking a “Host responsibility” approach. As a player, I am a contributor to the LARP, and so I like to regard other players as “my guests” in “my” game. If you know what I mean. (Taking a solipsistic view of LARP… :slight_smile: )

And if I see someone getting rather more sheets to the wind than might be wise, I will offer to get them a water, or a ginger beer or something like that.

I acknowledge that I have very little control over the actions of other people, so there is a limit to the unasked “steering” I can do. But the goal is to try.

These are the actions I can take.

In the wider view, I accept whatever limits the organisers of an event may wish to put on it…

#182

Well put, and that’s pretty much the same approach I’m taking.

You have the benefit of having your ‘awesome hands’ device to help you and others remember when it’s time to switch to water. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

#183

[quote=“amphigori”]
You have the benefit of having your ‘awesome hands’ device to help you and others remember when it’s time to switch to water. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:[/quote]

If it gets to REALLY awesome hands, then it’s for sure too much. :slight_smile:

INTERESTING hands is the time to stop for me… :slight_smile:

#184

[quote=“joker”][quote=“amphigori”]
You have the benefit of having your ‘awesome hands’ device to help you and others remember when it’s time to switch to water. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:[/quote]

If it gets to REALLY awesome hands, then it’s for sure too much. :slight_smile:
INTERESTING hands is the time to stop for me… :slight_smile:[/quote]

Yep rule one, always have a system. I work on recalling every drink I have consumed both alcoholic and virgin, when I start not being 100% certain I stop.

#185

[quote=“joker”][quote=“amphigori”]
You have the benefit of having your ‘awesome hands’ device to help you and others remember when it’s time to switch to water. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:[/quote]

If it gets to REALLY awesome hands, then it’s for sure too much. :slight_smile:

INTERESTING hands is the time to stop for me… :slight_smile:[/quote]

<3

#186

The line between ‘want’ and ‘can’t do without’ is… occasionally hard to spot, but it’s always there, Helikaon.

#187

Experience being ‘that guy’:
So I will put my hand up here, I got absolutely sloshed on saturday night, nothing more malignant that getting overly affectionate and embarassing myself, but nonetheless a nuisance for those who had to look after me.I am very glad that there were lovely, trustworthy, supportive people there, but I had a hell of a scare. I was blackout drunk, to the point that people expressed suprise that i was capable of attending the sunday morning game. I will say, i do not drink regularly, but usually I could handle that amount. The problem came from having lost 10% of my previous body weight between the last time I had gone out drinking, and chimera weekend. I did not even think about it and completely misjudged my tolerance. I wish to apologise now to anyone that i bothered, and thank those who helped me/put up with me.
As such, I recognise that it is important that we do something about this. I love the idea of a ‘tavern’ and systems to help monitor consumption, as well as clearly signposted water access, and perhaps on signup sheets a box you can tick if you plan to drink, leading to a reminder to bring food being added to your email reminder set or similar. Something simple to set up perhaps? I will also put my hand up and say that my job is a security guard, i am lisenced with a COA for crowd control purposes, part of my job is to ensure that people in eden park do not remove alcohol from designated drinking areas. Because of this, i would be happy to assist in a similar capacity at larp events. I also do bag search as part of my job, if it gets to that point, i am capable and qualified for medium sized bags, ie the largest sized that should be coming into the drinking area. I can also request more training. My younger cousin is going to be attending more larp events in the future, i want it to be safer for her and everyone really, and i don’t want to make an idiot out of myself again.

#188

Thanks for your post, Monica, you made some good suggestions.

Expanding on the idea of a tavern a little, concerns have been mentioned in earlier posts about having to get a temporary liquor license or the like. An easier solution, in my mind, is to simply set up a bench, container, and shelter and have anyone who is bringing alcohol put their alcohol behind the bench in the container, and put their name on the drink. The person behind the bar, either an NPC or a reveler taking turns*, then hands out drinks to people as they request them from their own personal stock. Players provide some juice and water for those who didn’t bring any alcohol or who would like an alternative drink (you bring alcohol for you, and non-alcohol to share). People bring their own cups unless there’s an easy way to provide them. The tavern bar provides an interface for people to roleplay with the bar, exchanging stories or plot**, or play games. Would sit well in a context of players bringing things to do and consume into the night hours. Would also enable organizers to choose to give people their alcohol back at the next evening/at the end of the game once the bar closes. Revelers then use this interface to moderate people who are drinking a little too fast by delaying them with IC stories or suggesting they take a drink of this new and delicious juice/water. While this may be a bit more work for organizers, it is also an opportunity to feed plot to those who wish to take 24 hour gameplay in a literal sense.

*In the case of revelers taking turns, a reveler serves 5? 10? people and then tags in the last person to come for service to take over role of bar tender (an NPC).
**Suggest that bar tenders require anyone asking to be served to tell them a story or listen to a story (perhaps provide a list of rumours behind the bar for the bar tender to embellish on)

#189

So I spoke to my Dad yesterday about our issues with alcohol (in case you’re wondering WTF and didn’t read my first post, my Dad is a drug and alcohol counsellor). I am going to post the points we talked about, with a little elaboration. (Please, if I repeat a point that is already in place, don’t rant at me saying you already do it… just take it as a nice confirmation that you’re doing the right thing)

  1. BOUNDARIES
    Now I know that so far the organisers of various different events have been doing their best to set what they think are appropriate boundaries. Unfortunately, they are still being ignored. People just tick the box saying they have read the rules, even though they haven’t! I’m afraid these boundaries are going to have to be pounded into everyone’s brains, visually and orally. Briefings, online form contracts, signs in every hall and bunk room, etc. From there, let’s look at the actual boundaries themselves.

  • Let’s start with In Character. It’s shocking that someone could play a game already drunk before they started. It needs to be stressed in rules and briefings that you may not turn up drunk to any game. What if they already are there? Then there need to be transparent rules and procedures laid out for removing a drunk person from the start of a game. They need to be monitored. This is important especially if you do not want them to drive away drunk. People’s emotional safety relies on the removal of drunk people from a game – the newbies at Chimera felt harassed – but also if it’s a larp with weapons, physical safety is also an issue.

  •           Also remember just because you're IC drinking in a tavern late at night, doesn't mean that when you go OOC the alcohol in your body just goes away.

  • Out of Character, and late at night. My Dad says the Night Watch is a really admirable idea. These folks need to promote social drinking, and make it clear that alcohol abuse will not be tolerated by the LARP community. More on this in the points below.

  1. SANCTIONS
    Have a clear system of these, and make it transparent. Suggestion: first offence, stood down for one game; second offence, stood down for two games; and from there on, no more games, you’re out of NZLARPS games. Of course, you need to be obvious about where to draw the line. What constitutes an offence?

  • You must be fair and firm. When you decide what constitutes an offence, you must punish everyone who commits said offence from here on out. You cannot play favourites.

  • You want to get onto the troublemakers. I would hope that the NZLARPS committee actually knows these people who are causing the trouble. Public naming and shaming is not suggested as a cause of action. But make sure you, the committee, know who you are watching and make sure they are made aware by you that they are under observation for the next few games/conventions.

  1. BREATHALYZER
    Yes, the cost factor is unfortunate, but this is the only really legal way of proving the intoxication of someone. Seriously consider this purchase. In the places where my Dad has worked, their patients are always breathalysed on entry to the premises.

  2. MEDICATION
    I believe we are asked when we sign up to these events to state any vital medications, right? Anyone on medication that can be affected adversely by alcohol must have special attention paid to them to make sure they do not become reckless with alcohol to numb their physical and/or emotional pain (e.g. I’m not just talking about people on anti-depressants, but also if anyone is on painkillers that contain opiates, and stuff like that. Then again, I’m not sure if everyone is honest about what medication they bring?). Also, if you’re a mate of someone and you know they have mental health issues, you need to be a voice of reason for them. DO NOT let them drink themselves into a stupor because you don’t want to look uncool. If something happens to them and you said nothing to stop them drinking, you will have to live with that for the rest of your life.

  3. PROVIDING OTHER OPTIONS
    Night Watch, this section will definitely be useful to you. The idea about providing lots of carbs to eat is great. Also I think someone mooted a water cooler, which is also not a bad idea. Also consider having fizzy drinks available in a chiller as another option. Free or discounted fizzy drinks is a standard thing to do at bars to counter alcohol abuse.

  4. LET’S MAKE IT CLEAR WHO WE ARE AND WHAT WE ARE ACTUALLY ABOUT
    Obviously from some people’s anecdotal evidence, there is some confusion about what larping is actually about. We need to make it clear over and over again that:

  • “Larping is (insert appropriate adjectives, verbs and nouns here), and it is NOT drinking.”
  • To quote Howard Moon from the Mighty Boosh, “The only fun is safe fun.”
  • Social drinking is safe. But heavy drinking is not larpsafe. We go to so much effort to be larpsafe with our bodies and props… why not with our alcohol consumption too?
  • Let’s be socially active and all promote social drinking over dangerous consumption.

  1. RUNNING YOUR OWN BAR
    This is especially for you Crucible organisers: my Dad thinks running a bar is a fine idea, but just make sure you check your legality around this issue. Running your own bar also opens the option to you of saying no to BYO. This of course will come with more problems and would probably meet with a deal of resistance. But you want to consider all of the options available to you.

  2. PRO-COMMUNITY VS ANTI-COMMUNITY ATTITUDES
    We need to be a lot stronger as a community and say no to any disrespect of our values. A lot of us sit back and let it happen, and later regret witnessing drunks embarrass and endanger themselves. We need to be more active.
    On a related issue to this (skip ahead to the next point if you don’t want to read my cleaning rant) I am absolutely disgusted by the idea that any player would tell a GM to fuck off when asked to clean. These people should be treated with the same sanctions as offensive drunks: ban for one game etc. This needs to be made clear at the start! Yes some people have gotten prior approval from a GM to leave early for another commitment, but someone who is just plain lazy cannot be allowed to get away with this. If I can clean for one and a half hours after Chimera last month with two herniated discs in my spine, then you had better be in a wheelchair or crutches if you dare to slack off! (End of rant)

  3. THE HARM REDUCTION MODEL
    This is something my Dad works with closely in his job, and he believed it was very applicable to the larp community given that actually, the metaphor can be extended to us. Observe:
    [attachment=0]types%20of%20drunks.jpg[/attachment]
    Read below the animal, where they sit in the drunk spectrum, and where we sit in the larp spectrum.
    Monkey: Those of us who drink usually drink to get into the state of the monkey – the social, fun, playful state. We feel inhibited, so we imbibe to get ‘loose’. Same with larping – a lot of us could be described as introverted in the larp community, so when we get into character it’s a way for us to play and be social that is safe and doesn’t reveal ourselves too much.
    Peacock: This is another common reason why people drink – so they can feel more confident and strut their stuff, and feel a bit vain. We larp for this too – we love having people complement our costumes, especially when we’ve put a lot of time, effort, and money into making them.
    Panda: This is a drunk most people don’t like to be around – the one who becomes an emotional drag, crying about everything that ever went wrong in their life, it’s all their fault, blah blah blah. No one likes looking after this person, it’s a total drag. Same in larping – no one wants to roleplay with the emotional leech who wants you to help them with all of their plot but doesn’t help with yours in return. It’s a selfish place to be.
    Tiger: This is when a drunk is violent, but also when they start getting macho. Let’s admit it, some of you boys in the larp community have done this before, where you’ve done stupid things while drunk to prove you’ve got a bigger dick than the next guy. This is bad enough, but of course, it’s far more serious when someone starts a punch up. We don’t like to larp with people like this either. We don’t like the person who slays newbie PCs in their first game and then instead of apologising, acts like it was his right to do it. Whenever there is violence in our LARPs, we try to balance it with polite OOC checks (eg. “Caution, that really hurt!” “OMG, I’m so sorry, are you OK?”). We’re not really trying to kill each other!
    Pig: (I feel a little sorry for this animal, I know they’re intelligent, but this is the animal in this model anyway) Like when a pig is wallowing in his own filth, the pig state is when someone is absolutely blackout drunk, or even vomiting drunk. The alcohol is enough to be reaching the parts of their brain that deal with automatic processes and shutting them down, e.g. waking up before you vomit, so instead you choke to death on your vomit… or even the automatic process of breathing, so you just stop breathing altogether. My Dad wants to stress to you that ALCOHOL RELATED DEATHS ARE MORE COMMON THAN YOU THINK. I’m not sure how to compare the pig to larping… maybe to the utterly selfish actions of people who don’t clean up after themselves? But basically if our friends are getting this drunk, we have a huge problem on our hands.

We want to promote people to stay in the Monkey and Peacock side of being drunk (which really, is the main reason people actually drink, no one really intends to go further than that, unless they have a serious problem with alcohol), and as soon as they reach Panda and/or Tiger level, to either send them to bed, or stuff them full of carbs so they sober up. Never must we allow anyone to get to Pig drunk. I am loathe to let anyone label anyone else with the label of “alcoholic”… unless you’re a doctor or counsellor, you really don’t have the right training to judge that. But as soon as someone hits Panda or Tiger, they have a problem. If they are hitting those levels two nights in a row, they need a serious chat with someone they can trust. They may need to seek professional help if this is something they regularly engage in.

So that’s my Dad’s 2 cents now. I hope that has helped!

#190

Maybe try something as simple as this and see how it goes.

At 2am we stop drinking and tidy up. Once the place is tidy we can carry on socialising but without the booze, drinking water/juice/whatever will help fend off hangovers the following day.

It’s probably better suited to conventions like Chimera and Hydra where at 2am no one is in character, but it could be used at Teonn, with people going back IC after the OOC responsibilities have been dealt with.

I love the Night Watch idea and they’d probably be the people calling time at 2 am and getting people to do their bit. I’m happy to take a part in this.

I’m all about keeping things really simple, if this doesn’t work try something else, but maybe it’s a simple first step.

#191

Thank you Claire! There’s a lot of good info in that, and thank your dad too.

MONKEY PEACOCK!!! :smiley:

#192

I really like Brin’s idea. It’s simple to implement, helps keep things tidy, lightens the load on everyone and it’d take special effort for someone to get themselves blotto in that time frame.

#193

The 2pm clean up & dry time is a good idea. That makes it more than a “curfew”.

People can actually get pretty blotto in a couple of hours, but with some of the other suggested measures and the change in expectations that this discussion will hopefully generate, there’s a good chance they won’t.

2 hours of drinking time from midnight (if that’s when drinking starts) also means that people can bring an appropriate number of drinks to consume in 2 hours. For light drinking that might mean around 3 standard drinks.

I like Claire’s suggestion about reminders to people. The Night Watch could make an announcement at the start of drinking time to remind people of the expectations for the event, and let people know who arrive later. It’s best to remind people of rules right at the time and place they need them.

#194

[quote=“Stephanie”][quote=“sophmelc”]

  • one of the drinkers falling out of their bunk and getting a serious head injury (maybe it would have happened without the alcohol, but I’m pretty sure that the liquor wasn’t helping)[/quote][/quote]

the injury occured 5 hours after i had stopped drinking and occured while i was asleep and rolled over in my sleep off of the top bunk that had no safety rail.
I was drunk before that, yes, but had taken myself off to have lots of water, and was able to hold conversations and walk about just fine. i was being silly/playful but i certainly wasn’t trashed.
i get the feeling you’re having a go at me, maybe because i missed your game? I find it really belittling and mean, especially since it was done online rather than in person, and to an audience of my peers in my community.
i recognise you might have been trying to highlight examples of what is a genuine problem of drinking in the community, but this is not one.
please try imagine what it would be like if you had an embarrising, vunerable and painful thing happen to you entirely accidentally, and also had to miss games you put lots of preperation and costuming into and paid for, and then someone in your community tried to say that you may have caused it yourself by being a ‘drinker’. it’s not nice.
If you could remove this comment and apologise i would really appreciate it.

#195

Hi Zanni,

No, I’m not having a go at you, which is why I deliberately didn’t give your name. The same as I didn’t give the name of the other guy I know about specifically - the actual identities aren’t important to the issue of increasing frequency and severity of incidents, and Sophie who wasn’t there was asking for specific evidence of the problems that were at Chimera. It’s also why I said maybe. Someone who had been drinking got injured - maybe the alcohol was a factor because you were sleeping more heavily, maybe it would have happened anyway. I don’t know. Maybe you would have been easier to treat without hangover symptoms - I don’t know that either.

Also, it’s a shame that you didn’t make it to my game, because I think you would have liked it, but seriously - there really aren’t any hard feelings. Someone else didn’t show up with even less notice (don’t know why) and two people fell asleep. It was the last round when a lot of people are physically exhausted, and I’d deliberately picked a game that had a lot of flexibility around casting. Yes, I’ve run games in the past where I would have been freaking out about a missing player, but really not this one. We’re cool, or at least I am, and you’re welcome to the next game I run.

And I’m sorry, because I realise that this is a sensitive issue, and that no one likes being the person talked about, but I’m not going to withdraw the post, and I’m not going to apologise for making it - I don’t think an apology is warranted in this case. Alcohol use is turning into a serious issue in the larp community, and I really don’t want the next round of discussions being about someone who got their neck broken.

I hope you’re feeling better and that there are no long term effects from the fall.

Best,

Stephanie

#196

You’re right, you don’t know that… you’re completely speculating on someone else’s medical condition which is a little rude, don’t you think?

while i realise you didn’t use my name, as i said i am well known in this community and considering i have already posted about the injury in the chimera forum, it wouldn’t take a genius to realise you’re talking about me. Publicly impling that this injury is a example of a wider alcohol problem in the community is untrue and not nice.

although i support the idea of raising this issue and even giving examples to proove it, this is not one, you’re wrong.

and i’m not cool with you steph, your ‘sorry - not sorry’ faux apology doesn’t cut it.

#197

This matter is being handled privately between myself and Zanni via email. I would appreciate if the discussion returned to the broader topic at hand.

#198

So seconding (or fourthing or fifthing or whatever) Bryn’s suggestions. While others are right that someone could get smashed in two hours if they set their mind to it, is there anyone that would say that they needed to drink for more than two hours to get into a social state of mind?
Six hours, at least, to sober up. A troupe of happily tipsy people to do a clean-up. Community co-operation. For once I can’t play devil’s advocate to this.

#199

Two considerations to take into account when working on a way to change the drinking culture:

  1. Plans to make sure the majority of drinkers keep it larpsafe may fail to capture small groups of people who for whatever reason decide to break off from the main group with some alcohol to imbibe in large quantities. Red card for drinking out of designated areas, and really fun drinking/night entertainment areas with warmth, plot, socializing, entertainment, and the ability to be have your own private space there may all help deter this sort of behaviour.

  2. New recruits to LARP. NZ has a notoriously unlarpsafe drinking culture. Effort to change the current LARP crowd’s drinking behaviour to be within larpsafe levels needs to consider how to capture new groups of people. Possibly splitting the night area into an IC and an OOC zone might help, provided the OOC zone also has warmth, socializing, entertainment, and privacy.

Expanding on the tavern idea I posted above, providing a firepit for warmth (if appropriate), somewhere to sit that isn’t on the cold hard ground, possibly blankets, may help. Arrange the area in such a way that there is a main tavern part and then small alcoves off to the side for private groups. Set one area a little away from the IC area as an OOC area (share the same bar, though). Then encourage anyone using the area to bring a form of entertainment. For non-alcoholic games, have people bring nice non-alcoholic drinks and provide hot drinks like cocoa.

#200

I personally disagree with dry events as I personally like to have a drink or too as I’m Rp’ing and like to kick back with at least one with friends at the end of the event/day.

I also dislike the idea of restricting what can be drunk, mostly because i have odd tastes in drink and inevitably what ever is on offer i don’t like.

I’m also a great believer in personal responsibility, but i am well aware that some people find this strangely difficult.

Being too hungover too play can affect games but the person who is most affected in the person who drank too much.while everybody should know there limets Refs and organisers should especially be aware of their performance the next day as this does affect other people play masivly. I would expect any Organiser who was too hungover to run their game be very unlike to be allowed to run again. I myself was too tired at some points to safely swing a sword at people, so i went to help pack tents away. This was less to do with drinking and more to do with epic jet lag, effect were still the same though.

Back in the Uk most games run on the princible that a member of the Ref team is enpowered to inform somebody when that have had enough, like a bar tender would (or should) Failor to adhear to this can result in: being told to go to bed, being asked to leave the site, normally in the moring after a “go to bed” command has been given (with police called in they refuse), a ban from future events (only used when a persons behavior has been deem damaging, unsafe, or inaproprate) note, i have only ever had to throw a person off site and ban them and that ad nothing to do with drink or drugs.

I myself have enforced these rules on many people in the past and have also stay’d up with people who i have been worry’d about on many occations. I have genrelly always seen this as part of my job as an event organiser and or ref, but i’m well aware that this may place extra unwanted effort on already hard working people. I would happy offer my services as a “drinks marshell” if people think that this would help (especially if i get a hat, a badge and a water pistol)

Finnally i oppose any blanket measure that punishes the grand majority of people who do drink responsibly. I like a drink with my friends.

Anyway that my rambling thoughts on the subject.