DIY generic firearm concept

I had an idea that could improve on the vocal call mechanic that is used to represent firearms in games like Stargate and Serenity.

We construct a programmable electronic clip that has simple digital display and can be programmed with the following data:

  1. How many rounds it holds
  2. How many clip instances it represents (i.e. your character buys 4 clips of ammo, but actually walks around with just the one clip).
  3. Chance of successfully hitting a target (this would likely be a combination of how much the firearm cost plus a skill rating).
  4. How long it takes to reload a clip.
  5. How long it takes to load a round into the chamber.

It would have some buttons (such as the trigger and reload buttons). A GM would be able to alter this data if you buy more ammo or give you mate a couple of clips, for instance.

It would be able to display a count down and it can display a single number (such as rounds left). It can play simple sounds.

Here’s how it would work:

The GMs would load the clip with the data for your character: rounds per clip, clip count, chance of hitting, clip reload time, round reload time.

The display shows how many rounds are left in the current clip.

You get into a gunfight.

Shooting

  1. You name your target
  2. You pull the trigger. If the shot was successful, a gunshot sound is heard and you name your damage. If unsuccessful, a different sound is heard.
  3. The display will flash while it displays the round reload time left.
  4. When the round is loaded, the display shows how many rounds are left in the current clip.

Reloading

  1. When you want/need to reload, you have to pull the clip out of the firearm and press the reload button.
  2. For one second it displays the number of clips left, then the display will flash while it displays the clip reload time left.
  3. When it reaches 0 you can load the clip back into the firearm

Advantages

  • Any clip can be programmed to behave like any weapon, you just need to make a physrep of the weapon that you want to use.
  • Avoids the expensive aspect of electronic firearms - how to detect if a firearm was successful in hitting the target, damage etc.
  • Characters can have a meaningful firearms shooting skill (this could vary from weapon type to weapon type by GM data modification)
  • No projectiles - safer and can’t lose the ammo.

Disadvantages

  • I have no idea how to do this, but I could probably write the code for it.
  • Unlike the pure vocal mechanic, would require some investment

Thoughts ?

I believe you can purchase systems like this that bolt on to an existing weapon.

Yeah, it’s not an original idea. But running a larp where we used real weapons has some drawbacks such as cost, safety, armed offenders callouts…

Do you know what they might be referred to as? Even better, got links to existing products?

OK I can build the gun, code the embedded systems with display control, but how do you determine if there was a hit? are you using a custom RF range finder? Or maybe a ping response for something like blue tooth? Its doable but cover could be an issue as the system will be hard pressed to cope with it. also line of sight is complicated without covering the entire target in a reciever system kinda like laser strike. Also how do you cope with multi fire unless you build a mobile adhoc network to keep count.

From a roleplaying perspective this strogly biases towards characters who are good shots regardless of what their character sheet says, attepts to overcome this bias will be technically challenging (I can think of a couple of ways but its not easy)

All this being said this is the kind of enginnering project I could really sink my teeth into if somebody is looking to do this. Cost wont be too bad I think about $100-120 a gun + chassis.

[quote=“Attatuk”]
From a roleplaying perspective this strogly biases towards characters who are good shots regardless of what their character sheet says, attepts to overcome this bias will be technically challenging (I can think of a couple of ways but its not easy)

All this being said this is the kind of enginnering project I could really sink my teeth into if somebody is looking to do this. Cost wont be too bad I think about $100-120 a gun + chassis.[/quote]

Simplest way to overcome it I think is ammuntion, sure my mp 5 and your mp 5 both hold 30 shots But I am a crap shot (in game) and will only get 10 shots per clip while you being a good shot (in game) get 20

Good to hear. My basic idea is that this system would be an enhanced vocal system. Some of the current games (Stargate, Serenity) use a vocalised firearms system where you basically name your target and tell them the damage they take. There may be modifiers (such as a countdown while the target attempts to find cover), but it’s pretty basic. I can’t see how this system handles character shooting ability - in Serenity you always hit (subject to cover etc), and it would be nice to have characters with different abilities.

My idea is that we retain the vocalised element (i.e. the target is informed of their damage and they have to keep track of their hit points), but make the firearms determine if a hit was made.

And the round reload delay and clip reload delays will give firefights a more realistic flavour, with no chance to cheat by firing more often than your weapon allows.

i.e. Your firearm has a % chance of successfully hitting the target. This is made up of Character Ability + Firearm accuracy (better quality firearms are more accurate). Pressing the trigger calls a routine that determines if you hit. If so, it makes a loud gunshot, if not then it makes a dull sound and either way you’ve used up 1 or more rounds.

Because we’ll be using the target characters to keep track of their hits (and adjust for things like armour, cover etc), we won’t need to build in the expensive hit detection components.

It’s basic, but cheap, and IMHO, an improvement on what is currently used.

I’m keen to progress this, and some of the other games (No Man’s Land ?) could be interested too.

NML will wait till we see the results first.

This sentence is really funny if you say it like Duffman would.

All sentences are funny when said like Duffman (the movie is awesome, btw - sadly, no Duffman).
This sounds like a really great idea. I assume the chip will decide whether or not you hit in the same manner as in a computer game, but how does that take into account the actions/abilities of the person you’re firing at? And how does it differentiate between holding the gun to someone’s head and firing from across a field? Presumably it would have to have some kind of detection system and/or be overidden ingame in ridiculous situations (like missing at point blank range)
Also - correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve never played any of these particular games - but the ‘name your opponent’s damage’ system seems really open to cheating

Good point. When the firearm succesfully fires, it means that you have fired an accurate shot. It’s then up to the target to apply the game rules for armour/cover/concealment etc to determine how much, if any, damage they should take.

If I was running the game, then I’d say that in a point blank situation (which would have a tight definition) you would ignore what the gun says and assume you always hit.

No detection system or override. The gun would be oblivious to the situation, it would assume you are in a gunfight rather than attempting a coup de grace.

They are all open to cheating, especially when a participant has to keep track of their hit points. I would have a rule that each class of firearm does a certain amount of damage eg:

pistol 1
submachine gun 2
assault rifle 3
sniper 5
rocket-propelled grenade 10 in a radius
etc

You would be able to tell what damage you are in for by the shape and size of the weapon begin pointed at you.

Switching to a burst-fire mode would increase the chance of hitting, at the expense of using up ammo more quickly. Not sure if it is feasible to do full auto though.

out of curiosity, is this concept reliant on a beam being shot at your target ie; lazer tag, or is just an electronic version of the damage calls that we already use, ie; the gun doing the call instead of you.

not trying to stir or anything i am just wondering

I was reading the Serenity rules and in it you name your target and then tell them what their damage is. i.e. you always hit, subject to their rules for cover etc. It struck me as being just too simplistic.

But then again, a full laser tag kit is really expensive, so I thought I could come up with a cheap improvement on the vocalised firearms combat approach.

Targets are treated the same as in Serenity i.e. when they are told they have been hit, they have to assess how much damage they take based on what hit them, cover, armour etc, and keep track of hit points.

But what is different is that the firearms have electronics that handle the following:

  • how many rounds you have left in your clip
  • how long it takes to reload a round into the chamber
  • how long it takes to reload a clip
  • accuracy (chance to successfully hit), which is made up of your character’s skill and the innate quality of the firearm. If someone else gets the firearm, it will have to be reprogrammed by the GMs

When you pull the trigger you will either hit or miss. The electronics will run a random number generator and see if you hit. If so, the firearm will make a loud bang (or several if you are in burst-fire mode). The target will take damage because they’ll know you are shooting at them and they heard the bang (you will have already named them when you pointed the gun at them). If the electronics decide you missed, the firearm will make a dull click type sound and the target won’t take any damage. Either way, the clip round count will be decreased.

Then again, your beam comment has got me thinking…

We could mount lasers on each firearm. We set all the weapons to always hit. i.e. they always go BANG when you pull the trigger. If you fire when the laser is on your target, you then call your damage and your target has to take it, otherwise you have missed. The great advantage of this approach is that it automatically incorporates cover.

I’d like to try both of these approaches when we get to the test phase with these weapons.

[quote=“Mike Curtis”]
Then again, your beam comment has got me thinking…

We could mount lasers on each firearm. We set all the weapons to always hit. i.e. they always go BANG when you pull the trigger. If you fire when the laser is on your target, you then call your damage and your target has to take it, otherwise you have missed. The great advantage of this approach is that it automatically incorporates cover.

I’d like to try both of these approaches when we get to the test phase with these weapons.[/quote]

Funnily enough i had a chat with Attatuk about a similar idea, the only problem with mounting lasers spots on the phyreps is the cost, that and he had some concerns with eye protection since the laser would need to project a noticeable dot on the target.

Imho if we are to follow the tech route to solving the firearms in larps dillema we might want to look at Carls idea of a laser tag style system.

Just in case no one has mentioned it off-forum (and seeing as the man himself isn’t posting here) I would suggest you take a look at the guns Craig used for Nibelungen - loud noise, vibration and laser beam at the front. They worked quite well, though the laser wasn’t really visible during daytime.

I meant not an electronic override, rather being overriden by the players/GM. Which is what you intend to happen, so point unnecessary :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Kudos for thinking outside the box Mike, but why are you planning to spend a lot of money on a very complicated system that does basically the same thing we are doing with our voices for free.

if you want to play with electronics why not look at building a simple laser tag system that can be bolted onto an existing frame, ie; a BB gun or other replica. That tells you

1, you have been hit
2, how mauch damage you have taken
3, how many HP you have left.

hell i would be happy without two or three and leave that up to your onboard computer, and just have a system that clearly tells you that you have been hit.

you can buy simple laser tag systems from toyworld and the warehouse, could we not get one of those and reverse engineer it.

Probably not as quite a bit of the electronics in those are in the little printed chips…

which are either incased in plastics or have that black wax on them so that its ALOT harder to reverse engineer them.

[quote=“Cameron”]
Probably not as quite a bit of the electronics in those are in the little printed chips…

which are either incased in plastics or have that black wax on them so that its ALOT harder to reverse engineer them.[/quote]

Bugger

I have seen kits that you can attach to existing replica weapons that turn them into laser tag guns i just cant remember where.

correct me if my ignorance is showing, but how hard would it be to build one unit to send a infra red beam (or laser) and one unit to register and score hits. rather than building something complicated that will keep score of hits and damage and all that, just something that makes a noise or vibrates when you are hit.

Posting late in the piece but adding my 10c :wink:

After looking at other thread this one seemed best one to post in.


Neat larpable guns on the net


Firearms

Some quick research leads me to pick these as the best off the shelf products.
amazon.com/Lazer-Team-Deluxe … 60-5439046

Price is great for what they do, should be about nz$100-120 for 2 landed
Most impressive is range , 75m.
gizmodo.com/archives/lazer-tag-t … 021203.php

Custom generic diy.
Some parameters to consider.
.Range required
.work in daylight
.accuracy, 30cm cone at 10m or 2cm at 30m

Something that could be built at low cost.

Hit sensor, 4cm half dome.
Beeps when you were hit.
Hopefully small enough to not look OOC on most costumes.
$15

Gun attachment, 10cm 3cm pvc tube.
With a button on a wire hanging out for trigger.
This could be built up into a gun or attached to an existing model.
Keeping the gun and sensor separate would allow for sepuku
Range without focusing lenses would be 30cm cone at 10m, max range 20m.
Best guess until prototype made and tested.
$15

As for applying stats/limits, all in the programming.
Optional master unit to program gun unit and hit sensor with hit points and shooter’s accuracy etc.

There may be other factors I have missed being a LARP virgin (sacrifice me at the next game if you need).

Ahh just what every modern/future RPG/larp requires, a tech specialist. Welcome aboard mr_westie