Complex rules versus simple rules

Community Larp discussion
#1

To avoid derailing chat in the Star Wars forum, I’m continuing the discussion on complex rules here.

Obviously kiwis can cope with complex rules as well as anyone else, if they have to. But complex rules aren’t needed. They’re a hangover from tabletop roleplaying, and they don’t suit larp.

Here’s why:

  1. In larp you have to store all the rules in your head at once. The simpler they are, the less distraction there is from playing your character, and the less likely that you will get the rules wrong.

  2. Verbal calls are distracting and counter-immersive.

  3. Complex rules seldom add real value, except for the enjoyment that some people get just from mastering the rules. In terms of providing interesting challenges to players, the same end results can be obtained with simple rules.

  4. Complex rules are attractive to a small market of what might be called “hard core gamers”, but they are off-putting for a much larger group of casual gamers, people with an interest in improvised drama, costume, fighting, socialising, and all the other things in larp that don’t require complex rules. In the UK & USA, complex rules are one of the things preventing larp from moving from a niche interest to a more general one. In the Nordic countries, where rules are simpler and larps focus more on the actual roleplaying, larp has become much more mainstream.

There was nothing accidental about the simplicity of rules in larps I’ve run before. They got simpler over time. We culled out our old rules that weren’t needed, such as multiple damage calls. We removed rules that had undesirable effects in play, such as weapon/armour shattering and people falling unconscious at 0HP. And those rules weren’t missed in the slightest!

US Larp
#2

first of all - thank you for moving this out of the thread - I don’t mind a good debate but you are right to move it as it will just cause the thread to eventually explode :slight_smile: So thank you :slight_smile:

Why do I like alot of calls in sci fi larp:

Science fiction larps tend to use ranged attacks alot, no matter how you represent this you will inevitably end up taking one of two paths.

Either you will go down the projectile line which I am not prepared to go down due to health and safty rules, sure you guys have ACC but I guess the thought of somone potentially losing an eye at my event doesnt make me feel any better about ACC looking after them… if you use water then it pisses off the monster crew as they get sodding wet. A bit of holy water is pritty bad, factor in that every one will have a waterpistol and soon the monster crew will tell you where to stick it.

Or

You resort to calls, sure its less immersive but it lets you have ranged abilities and you get to do all the cool things you see people do in the films, shooting a nerf gun at somones gun wont do jack, but having a call that lets you shatter or disarm that weapon gives you a level of power beyond that of chasing your friends around a garden with arisoft weapons and if you have a good enough imagination you should be more than capable of covering up a ranged attack call with the thought of a plasma bolt and the screaming sound it makes as it flys towards you superheating the air and eventually your flesh. (yum)

Then you have the problem of the melee characters being under powerd. If the ranged guys can stand way back and take out the guys then why am I bothering to use a sword? Fair point - I can hear alot of people saying - i never saw any one using a melee weapon other than a light sabre in the films all I can say is Ewoks with spears any one?

Ok so then you have to factor in force users, even if you don’t let the player base become force users its nice to have them take one down once in a while right? The big bad can be seriously big and bad if you make them a jedi / force user. But how do you get this across to the player base? How can you fire lightning out of your fingers without a call unless you strap them all up to batteries that the gm’s control to shock them. While alot of gm’s would like this idea and thinking about it actually… where was I… o right calls.

Most importantly, and I feel this gets missed alot by some of the “hardcore european larpers” who love immersion. You are in a Role Playing game. If you can pick a lock in the real world how is needing to pick a lock in the game using your real life knowledge any representation of what your character is capable of?

Immersion works both ways, I try hard not to play huge characters when I larp unless I have a really good idea as I am infact huge. I try not to play the computer tech guy that fixes pc’s and has good computer skills. Instead I create a character that can do stuff I can’t. Like run really fast, build cars, read peoples minds or throw people around a room using the force.

I can’t do this in the real world and while I love re-enactment I feel that larp is a step towards drama rather than re-enactment in that it allows you to develope your own character and bring it to life in a fanstastic universe run by a fantastic plot team.

For me, simple systems work for re-enactment. Complex systems work for role play.

-Adam-

#3

or you can use lasertag type guns for your sim

#4

still doesnt answer how you do force powers tho :slight_smile:

#5

I’m a big fan of fewer rules as well. It used to be because I didn’t think the complexity added anything to the game. Now I think it’s because it actually takes a whole lot away from the game.

I’ll give a few examples from Wolfgang that I noticed. I’m not trying to trash the players /crew or rules here here, just point out where rules get in the way of role playing:

Example 1
A players wandered through a bunch of villagers and sapped them all on the head, they fall down and a bit later they get up again.

“Cool”, you might say, “what is the problem with that?”

The problem is, a sap is pretty much half a house brick in a sock. Getting knocked out with one would f*king hurt and likely require hospital treatment and some serious recovery time. The reason why none of the players / crew think like that is because the phys-rep is a pair of socks. They treat it like a “magic sock of sleeping”, not half a house brick and a fractured skull.

Example 2
The combination of the rules for grappling / HP / AP / stakes / shields / weapons and vampires immunity to normal damage means that a vampire using armour and placing a shield over their heart are in enough of a gray area within the rules that it’s almost impossible to “role play” the combat. To win, you need to “rule play” it instead. They’re not unkillable, but the strategy you must take to defeat them is distracting.

Example 3 (good example - simple rules)
Nightmare Circle - there are some combat rules written down somewhere, but it was explained quickly to me and capped off with “don’t worry, just role play it”. The combat is actually really good. From time to time blunt steel knives have come in to play and nobody cared because they were used “symbolically” as fitted the moment. Likewise, on a few occasions, we’ve had to grapple people, but it was done without malice and worked.

#6

I’ll go you one further - Flight of the Hindenburg, which only had one real rule and some sub-level stuff that only the relative people knew.

Paper/scissors/rock to see who wins, excepting kickass which always wins. This was beautifully executed when one skycaptain rolled up to one Rick Blaine, wound up for the knockout, paused mid way for the quick jenken match, then resumed for the follow through within a heartbeat. It was over so quick I almost missed it, and the overall effect was of a straight punch-out. Everthing else about that little moment was entirely character-based interaction, no rules in sight.

#7

Ahhh the good old rules debate.

My take it on it is this.

If you NEED a call because there is NO other way of conveying the mechanic in game, then you have to use one. From what I have seen this is best done by including it in an “in game” type statement. A lot of issue with double, triple calls etc. is that they don’t feel in game because they are just a mechanic. And can therefore take away from the game.

SO what is actually needed in a game? Is there another way of conveying that same information?

We play games with fantastic themes, weapons that would do more damage than others, magic powers etc. this can be a big ask.

Summary: Use them (calls) if needed by do them in an “in game” as possible way. Ultimately the simpler you go the easier the game will flow. Also paper/scissors/rock - pass, if I want to roll I’ll play D&D.

#8

Adam - my short answer is that you can achieve what you want with simple rules, by only including calls where you absolutely need to in order to achieve your objectives. You can carefully design the rules to achieve exactly what you want, and no more, with an eye to keeping them immersive.

EDIT: Damn you Jared, you always post my thoughts while I’m typing!

Your objectives seem to be: verbal ranged combat, balanced ranged and melee combat, options in combat, character abilities the player doesn’t have, and modeling the Star Wars movies.

Starting with Force abilities, I have to say that they hand you a lot of really suitable abilities for larp on a silver platter. Invisible mental powers? That’s perfect stuff for larp immersion. The trick is to chose to include the abilities that work well in larp, and exclude the others. There is always some adaptation required in moving from one medium to another, no book turns into a movie and remains exactly the same for example.

For example, force lightning like the Emperor uses is poorly suited to larp. It’s the only power that is visible, and therefore has to be imagined. On the other hand, the force choking that Vader uses is perfect for larp. It’s invisible, can be roleplayed by the target, and there is a hand gesture that comes with it so no verbal is required. Using the force to lift objects or do acrobatic flying doesn’t suit larp, but using it to push someone backwards, deflect shots with your lightsaber, or to do the Old Jedi Mind Trick does. For the most part, hand gestures and lightsaber movements could be used to communicate the ability.

For ranged combat, if you’re not happy to use loud built-in weapon noises, then you’ll need calls. But they could be minimised to one or two. All the different damage levels are not necessary for the effects you want.

I outlined in the Star Wars forum how you could have lots of melee combat effects with no calls at all.

In terms of your character doing things you can’t, how about these things: repairing droids and ships, hot-wiring and hacking security systems, using a blaster or lightsaber, using larp-suitable force powers, and just being in the Star Wars setting at all. None of those things need much in the way of calls or complex rules to achieve, and there are a lot more that don’t.

You can have a larp with both fantastic abilities that let you be someone else and take an immersive approach. Damage calls, numeric locational damage, and lots of effect calls aren’t needed in order to create a setting that feels like Star Wars, and they make it harder for people to focus on their characters.

#9

HA! I apologise for having similar thoughts as you Ryan. I’ll try not to do that from now on. :stuck_out_tongue:

#10

ok so whats the hand gesture for pulling somones weapon from their hand and then just pulling that player using the force…

At some point you will have to inform the character that they are dead / damaged no matter what you do with mind powers.

Swining your light sabre to reflect incomming attacks… Yes it works but how do people know your reflecting them and not just blocking them - it takes skill to block as was established with Lukes training but to reflect. Reflecting takes a true master.

So how do you inform the players without using an ic / ooc call?

I do agree that it is better to use damage calls (for spells particularly) as part of a chant or incatation, even mele battle calls I can kind of understand but they tend to come across as more of a melee spell than a battle chant - somthing I may be dealing with myself for my St Wolfgang character.

To be honnest tho im happy you arn’t complaining that the number of calls will be hard to memorise and its really come down to how much shouting you want in a larp in regards to combat calls.

But…

and here’s the kicker,

Combat / melee is not quiet… you can tap each other with latex swords as much as you want but untill you start using re-enactment weapons you don’t even come close to the sound of metal on metal, instead all you get is a dull thump. Then add in that when people get hit by a larp weapon they tend not to say “ow” let alone wince. Unless you are being an arse and hitting too hard… Think about what it feels like to cut yourself with a kitchen knife by mistake. Now imagine that kitchen knife is a bastard sword being slammed into your leg. Yum!

On this I totally agree with Derek, larp is not damage realistic. It probably never will be because alot of people won’t want to rp being completly buggerd after a fight or will forget what they hurt an hour ago when they should probably have trouble moving let alone fighting.

To this extent why not create noise in combat - whats wrong with using calls to stimulate the mind into thinking its not just a case of “swing the sword”, but the person you are hitting is screaming and the sound of your scuffle is not as subtle. There are ways of making silent kills but lets be honnest how many guards actually go down with the sound of latex on armor instead of clanging and screaming? If you have a good enough rules system then the rogue types will have ways of dealing with the situation without a sound. Again this goes back to a complicated skill system. If you want people to be able to do all the natty stuff like reprogram droids, hack security systems, sew on severd arms then its only fair that the people who do the fighting should get some fun toys as well.

If anything I would argue that calls add to the immersion not take away from it. I have been to alot of larps around the world and I have never had a bad time at any of them. The events I have really enjoyed myself at have been one of two things. Either:

Alot of rp - so much so that combat never broke out even tho there was a massive combat rules set.

Unadulterated Combat - if i stepped out of my ooc tent I basicaly walked into somone at least dueling never mind the daylight muggings that happend on the roads. It was a crazy dark system where when I walked with a group of people we got attacked but if I walked around on my own I was never touched… The difference was this event had over 2,000 people. It wasn’t a small system. But it still had seperate hit locations and damage calls for attacks. It worked and has run for many years.

Perhaps with the move towards calls thats occuring with larps in NZ it might be time to shrug and roll with it. If its what the people want or are moving towards then let them try it. If they want to go back to the old days and prefer simple calls then at the end of the day its up to each player to decide for themselves. I fully respect a players free will outside of a game to choose how they want to larp - you pay for the experience so you might as well do what you want to do when you do it.
So at the end of the day the people who love a high volume of calls in larp are not going to agree with the people who hate systems with alot of calls and this debate will probably go on as long as larp continues. But does that mean we can’t larp together?

Hell no. If you enjoy larping then inevitebly you won’t care what the system is or how the rules work as long as you have fun, because other wise whats the point?

#11

Here here.

#12

Reaching out like you’re gripping something at hand level, then tossing your hand to one side.

Pushing them away could be an open hand slowly pushing away from the force user. Pulling them towards you could be a “come here” gesture moving slowly towards the force user.

The Old Jedi Mind Trick could be achieved by touching your fingers to your temple and giving a verbal command. Rather than having a separate mind-reading ability, the Old Jedi Mind Trick could be used to ask them questions that they must answer truthfully (this could be a power-up of the ability that only some force users have). That way the IC and OOC interaction is identical, there is no need for verbal calls or OOC talk.

Common hand gestures are pretty well-established and easily recognisable in the western world, and commonly used in the Star Wars movies - for example when lifting and throwing large objects big gestures with both hands are typically used, although that’s an example of something that wouldn’t work well in larp. Of course, you wouldn’t want too many ability gestures. Just enough to give the force users some larp-suitable ability options.

If you’re going to have one or two ranged calls, then to reflect a blaster the Jedi could swing their lightsaber and call the bolt at the target as if they were firing a blaster.

The point that Jared and I are making is to use as few as possible, not necessarily none.

A lot of calls will make the rules hard to remember. See point 1 in my first post. Complex rules create an extra workload that some players won’t be interested in overcoming, people will mess it up in play, and the complexity will leave players thinking about rules during play instead of what their character should be thinking about.

Combat in the Star Wars movies sounds nothing like people calling out “double”. It doesn’t simulate the sound of combat, and it restricts people’s ability to converse during combat - you know, actual roleplaying. If you want combat sounds, use blasters and lightsaber props with loud electronic sound effects built in.

If you want the sound of people crying out in pain, encourage people to roleplay it. Although I’ve found it’s something people resist doing.

Fighting is naturally fun anyway.

You seem to be missing this point: we used to have more complex systems with multiple-damage calls and lots of effects. We reduced the complexity, and preferred it.

In terms of a “move towards” more complex systems here, I don’t see it. Stargate and Serenity are more complex, and that’s about it. I’d argue strongly that there is no need for their added complexity, either. St Wolfgang’s, the most popular live combat larp at the moment, is possibly simpler than Mordavia was. Knightshade is only fractionally more complex.

Obviously larp arrangers will run whatever they like, and players will play whatever they like. But there is also freedom to debate the advantages and disadvantages of each approach.

It’s my opinion that complex rules are often inherited unthinkingly, as part of a longstanding culture. Your rules, for example, have a strong resemblance to Treasure Trap, the progenitor of UK larp in the 1980s, which in turn was just an adaptation of tabletop D&D. Treasure Trap is where your “double/triple” calls and numeric locational damage came from.

Perhaps you are a hard-core gamer who likes complex rules, but my experience is that simpler rules widen the appeal of larp beyond the hard-core gamer market, without sacrificing anything. I’ve found people who would like to try larp but found even the Mordavia rules unappealingly complex. A Star Wars larp appeals to a potentially wide market, but you’ll restrict that market severely by making it complex when it could be done with simple rules.

#13

[quote=“Jared”]
Summary: Use them (calls) if needed by do them in an “in game” as possible way. Ultimately the simpler you go the easier the game will flow. [/quote]

I still stand by this. I mashed long and hard to make calls in game as in game as possible for Knightshade. There are still a few. Mighty Blow (double damage) is one of them.
“I strike the a mighty blow” is how it is meant to be portrayed, although I think once you’ve said this a few times for effect, defaulting to “Mighty Blow” is ok. It also relates to only weapons being weilded 2 handed and not every weapon can be weilded in this manner.

So I guess what I am saying is, if you NEED calls use them. Disguising them up a bit won’t hurt either.

#14

I’m a combat noob and you all know it. :smiley: Tbh, in the middle of combat, even trying to count hitpoints while attempting to either hit and avoid being hit is about all i can manage. I wish I could remember to scream in pain or limp or drop my sword or whatever I should be doing to RP various injuries (especially since I think other people would be more likely to help if they knew someone was getting their arse kicked :stuck_out_tongue:), but my brain goes into RL survival mode even in fake combat and I don’t remember till afterward.

In any kind of encounter where I’m expected to remember more than that while fighting, I’m gonna get accused of cheating and not taking my hits. I just know it.

#15

And what I’m saying is, look closely to see if you REALLY need them. In most cases, it will turn out you don’t.

#16

I guess my problem with disguising calls in the form of mighty blow and fury blow or whatever just comes back to the problem we had at the first KS event I went to of people not knowing what it ment.

If I hit somone with Mighty blow, then I hit them with Double I think I know which one a new player would understand more easily.

It seems you guys want to have it both ways, lets make it simple for the new guys on one hand but more immersive so you can’t just jump right in you have to know what the calls do.

Sure I have alot of calls but at least they are self explanitory…

Shatter Weapon… hmm well that prob means my weapon is buggerd right?

Knockdown… well ok what im taken off my feet?

Blind… ok - im blind - how long for?

Disarm - erm i lose my arm or what? Oooh Disarm drops weapon

Through… it goes through me? (ok so this one isn’t /that/ obvious but its not like yelling by my ninja stealth weakspot strike which would seriously confuse somone.)

Again if you want to be able to do cool things like they do in not only the starwars films but in the starwars universe you need calls. (unless you want some idiot buying the most annoying sound effect gun in the world which when you have 4 or 5 people in a fire fight means no one knows who the hell is being shot till its in your eye blinding you with flashy dooom).

#17

Yeah my bad, people didn’t know what Mighty Blow was because I forgot to brief everyone before-hand. I assumed they had read the rule book and remembered. Even with the calls you have outlined, this will still occur.

#18

As a side note:
Do what you are going to do anyways. People may or may not make there decisions to play on this, its hard to say.

I am pretty sure that I never resolved the arguments about how I wanted to run KS, although I did take some suggestions on board.

And to be honest my biggest concerns about what you have outlined so far is:

The multiple HP per location, trust me, this will always be a bone of contention.
It was bad enough trying to get people to accept 1 damage limbs/ 2 damage torso. I kept it in favour of 1 damage non locational because I like the combat dynamic it creates.

Your sniping rule - this is actually kind of fair, assuming you can find a GM. Game play stuff that requires a GM is awful. Theres some in every game system and in everyone its clunky to operate. Sadly there will always be more players needing GM’s than there are GM’s.

So what will happen? You will run a game, some people won’t turn up because of your rules, oh well it happens, some will give it a go regardless and some will like the rules right away.
And at the end of the day, people will play the game, make some observations, positive or negative and you will make a decision on what is valid and what is not. Same as every other larp.

#19

There may be one or two calls that you need, but most you don’t.

I’m yet to hear why Star Wars in particular needs special calls to blind, shatter, go through armour, etc.

If I’m wearing armour and am hit with a lightsaber or blaster shot, surely I can figure out the result without the need for a call? Why should it sometimes go through the armour and sometimes not? That’s not something that needs to be an ability.

To include Force use, it’d be good to have a few abilities like pushing people over, disarming them, choking them, deflecting blasters, etc. All of these could be done with entirely IC gestures and no OOC calls. People will be happy using the Force abilities that they have, and the ones that aren’t included in the larp won’t matter.

Get a bunch of standard loud Star Wars blaster sound effect devices made up, and have everyone use them. If people are confused in mass combat about who has been shot, it can be clarified with IC comments.

#20

ic comments like what? “I say you over there isnt my gun very big and pointed at your arm…”

At the end of the day anything sci fi will (in my honnest opinion) require some form of call, keeping them short sweet and to the point works and has worked in the uk for 3 years with a small player base (smallest event was 12 largest was 76 most recent was 63).

All I can say now is try it and see :slight_smile: