I find this interesting because in March I knew 1 Larper, that’s it and I found this website and signed up for LARPs and feel like I have been welcomed into a family… people who don’t know my friend at all are friendly and nice to me, everyone is encouraging and helpful. I have had the complete opposite of bullying… even when I’ve done something stupid on the site or put my foot into it(which I have majorly at times), people have been kind and helpful…
I agree with everyone who has said that we don’t have a bullying larp culture in NZ. We’re very welcoming and supportive of newcomers and there’s overall a friendly, open atmosphere and we frown on people being picked on. It’s not perfect - personally I’ve occaisonally been abused by Adam (Xcerus) on this forum, for example, and some people might find my own online discussion style too firm, but any such issues are isolated and don’t amount to a culture of bullying.
However, I think I can understand how you might see it that way, Alista. You’ve got some very specific and strong beliefs about what larp is, what the best kinds of larp are, what makes for safe larp weapons, etc. When you voice those opinions here on Diatribe, a lot of people disagree with you, and some people (including myself) disagree strongly. From your perspective, that might seem unfriendly. It might also seem like everyone else is in an “inbred” group (I assume you mean “in-group”, or clique), because many people seemed concerted in their disagreement with your opinions.
The thing is, people are entitled to their opinions. You are entitled to state your opinions, and the people who disagree with you are entitled to state theirs, and to do so in strong terms if they want. So long as they’re not attacking you personally or trying to suppress you then it’s not bullying. It’s debate. If lots of people disagree with you, it doesn’t mean they are ganging up on you or that they are an in-group. It just means that the local consensus has swung towards opinions that don’t happen to agree with yours.
In my opinion an “inbred” larp community would be a stagnant group of larpers who don’t try new things. That’s the opposite of the NZ larp community at the moment - it’s expanding rapidly both in terms of the variety of people involved and the styles of larp played.
Personally, I totally support your right to state your opinions on larp, and to run larps however you like, and I think most people who comment here feel the same way, so long as others are also supported in their rights to reply with their own opinions and run larps their own way. NZLARPS would also support your larps, if you wanted its support, because its mission is to support NZ larp in all its varieties, and the society has been very happy to help advertise your group & events in the past. These are not attributes of a bullying or ingrouping community.
[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]I agree with everyone who has said that we don’t have a bullying larp culture in NZ. We’re very welcoming and supportive of newcomers and there’s overall a friendly, open atmosphere and we frown on people being picked on. It’s not perfect - personally I’ve occaisonally been abused by Adam (Xcerus) on this forum, for example, and some people might find my own online discussion style too firm, but any such issues are isolated and don’t amount to a culture of bullying.
However, I think I can understand how you might see it that way, Alista. You’ve got some very specific and strong beliefs about what larp is, what the best kinds of larp are, what makes for safe larp weapons, etc. When you voice those opinions here on Diatribe, a lot of people disagree with you, and some people (including myself) disagree strongly. From your perspective, that might seem unfriendly. It might also seem like everyone else is in an “inbred” group (I assume you mean “in-group”, or clique), because many people seemed concerted in their disagreement with your opinions.
The thing is, people are entitled to their opinions. You are entitled to state your opinions, and the people who disagree with you are entitled to state theirs, and to do so in strong terms if they want. So long as they’re not attacking you personally or trying to suppress you then it’s not bullying. It’s debate. If lots of people disagree with you, it doesn’t mean they are ganging up on you or that they are an in-group. It just means that the local consensus has swung towards opinions that don’t happen to agree with yours.
In my opinion an “inbred” larp community would be a stagnant group of larpers who don’t try new things. That’s the opposite of the NZ larp community at the moment - it’s expanding rapidly both in terms of the variety of people involved and the styles of larp played.
Personally, I totally support your right to state your opinions on larp, and to run larps however you like, and I think most people who comment here feel the same way, so long as others are also supported in their rights to reply with their own opinions and run larps their own way. NZLARPS would also support your larps, if you wanted its support, because its mission is to support NZ larp in all its varieties, and the society has been very happy to help advertise your group & events in the past. These are not attributes of a bullying or ingrouping community.[/quote]
Can I just say: I don’t pick on you specifically - but I do have a right to my opinions as you put it. If my opinion of somone is that they are talking out of their arse then you agree that I have every right to express that opinion?
This however is not the case on Diatribe and to think it is wanders into the delusional. As for “Welcoming new larps” You were among several who slagged my game rules and concept when I first posted them on here.
You seriously need to think twice before pretending to be even remotly liberal in your attitude towards larps and I can totaly see how somone could think your destructive critisism would be Bullying.
While I accept I have been far from nice to people in the past on this forum - I would like to point out that I have never singled out one person. I hate you all equally - especially Zara - after all I married you so you could not excape 
*
*Note: She said ‘I do’ in public - plenty of time to run if she wanted to.
Absolutely. But not to call them an arse - there’s a difference.
Not sure what you’re referring to here, context seems to have been lost.
[quote=“Xcerus”]As for “Welcoming new larps” You were among several who slagged my game rules and concept when I first posted them on here.
You seriously need to think twice before pretending to be even remotly liberal in your attitude towards larps and I can totaly see how somone could think your destructive critisism would be Bullying.[/quote]
I didn’t “slag” your rules, as I recall it. I pointed out how similar results could be achieve more simply. It was intended as constructive criticism. But I can see how it could be taken the wrong way. Which is what I’m talking about - strong opinions about larp can be taken as bullying. But I did make it clear when I gave those criticisms that they were just my take.
(I wonder how this’s going to end =S.)
Absolutely. But not to call them an arse - there’s a difference. [/quote]
No there is not. If you feel that people should be able to express their opinions openly then there is nothing wrong with me deciding to call somone an arse. If my opinion of somone is that they are an arse then that is all there is to it.
[quote=“Ryan Paddy”][quote=“Xcerus”]As for “Welcoming new larps” You were among several who slagged my game rules and concept when I first posted them on here.
You seriously need to think twice before pretending to be even remotly liberal in your attitude towards larps and I can totaly see how somone could think your destructive critisism would be Bullying.[/quote]
I didn’t “slag” your rules, as I recall it. I pointed out how similar results could be achieve more simply. It was intended as constructive criticism. But I can see how it could be taken the wrong way. Which is what I’m talking about - strong opinions about larp can be taken as bullying. But I did make it clear when I gave those criticisms that they were just my take.[/quote]
I am not overly sensitive when it comes to what people say about stuff - eventualy it gets to me sure. I just wonder how many larps have been shut down by the combined efforts of yourself and Exquire with your ‘contructive critisicm’
Undeniably I have critisized a few larp systems and the way they are run / have been run. However I have always attended these larps as an open individual to see if I would enjoy them. The only larp I have not attended and also not critisized is Blair’s time travel larp.
I have gone out of my way not to attend because I rage at time travel in films and TV when they totally break reality. Surpisingly it is also the reason why I like Dr who. They actually account for the universe getting totally messed up by time travel.
I guess what I am trying to say is - if you are going to critisize somthing or have strong feelings about how things should or should not be run then at least have the decency to try somthing new. You might be totally correct and it will confirm your position (at least to yourself). Alternativly you may actually learn somthing that you can use in the future.
Prime example on this one:
You criticised damage calls in games for mele.
Games in NZ now have damage calls.
NOTE: I DO NOT TAKE CREDIT FOR THIS. It is just an observation. Trust me, if i was taking the credit - you would know about it 
The same way everything ends: Well. Always… well.
_>
End? Nothing ever ends.
[quote=“Xcerus”]Prime example on this one:
You criticised damage calls in games for mele.
Games in NZ now have damage calls.[/quote]
I will always criticise damage calls in games for melee even though Teonn uses them, the problem is for the type of system that is running you just have to. This isn’t as black and white as you are making it. It’s a whole bunch of Grey.
Wouldn’t it be great if you could just detect damage through technological solutions? But alas, that’d require a whole mesh of wires etc, which wouldn’t look pretty, and be expensive… Ah well.
Where are you going with this? That people should be able to call each other names, but not to constructively criticise each other’s system designs, and that would make the forum more welcoming?
No-one was discussing freedom of expression until you brought it up, seemingly just as a defence for your personal attacks on people. Alista’s concern was about bullying, not having the right to call people names.
It’s not my opinion that complete freedom of expression is a good thing on a forum like this. I agree with Diatribe’s rules of no personal attacks and no racist/sexist/homophobic language. I think the phrase “play the ball, not the man” sums it up best. Personal insults come all too easily in a remote, text-based medium like this, in a way that they are less likely to in person. Things get misinterpreted easily, and flaming spirals out of control.
But there has to be actual discussion of larp, even if it sometimes makes people uncomfortable to be disagreed with, otherwise what’s the point? That was my point above - that being disagreed with may be upsetting for some people, but that doesn’t make it bullying.
[quote=“Xcerus”]I am not overly sensitive when it comes to what people say about stuff - eventualy it gets to me sure. I just wonder how many larps have been shut down by the combined efforts of yourself and Exquire with your ‘contructive critisicm’
Undeniably I have critisized a few larp systems and the way they are run / have been run. However I have always attended these larps as an open individual to see if I would enjoy them. The only larp I have not attended and also not critisized is Blair’s time travel larp.
I have gone out of my way not to attend because I rage at time travel in films and TV when they totally break reality. Surpisingly it is also the reason why I like Dr who. They actually account for the universe getting totally messed up by time travel.
I guess what I am trying to say is - if you are going to critisize somthing or have strong feelings about how things should or should not be run then at least have the decency to try somthing new. You might be totally correct and it will confirm your position (at least to yourself). Alternativly you may actually learn somthing that you can use in the future.
Prime example on this one:
You criticised damage calls in games for mele.
Games in NZ now have damage calls.
NOTE: I DO NOT TAKE CREDIT FOR THIS. It is just an observation. Trust me, if i was taking the credit - you would know about it [/quote]
Seems like we’re now going to rehash the conversation that annoyed you in the first place.
First off, are you seriously saying that no-one should comment on a game system until they’ve played it? If you saw some rules that you thought looked problematic for whatever reason, you’d never comment on them until you’d played the game? Even if you’d seen similar rules work poorly at games in the past, or have specific issues? Well, I would. Games can be judged on design. However, I have learned a few things about how people take criticism of their games or ideas personally, so I’d try to be more sensitive to that than I have been in the past.
Secondly, as I said at the time, I have lots of experience with larps with damage calls. It’s not some amazing new thing you imported from the UK - it’s something that has always been common in NZ, and I’ve run games that way myself. Take the Stargate rules that were running before your game, for example. As I said when we discussed this, for Mordavia we deliberately phased damage calls out so that all strikes did one damage. It originally had damage calls. I think it was better without.
Thirdly, I’d have to say your reaction (especially including the ongoing grudge you seem to hold against me for this one discussion, which flares up into personal abuse intermittently) took criticism of a set of rules much more personally than others have. When I pointed out issues with having strikes to the torso do 2 damage to the Knightshade designers, we had a rational discussion about the pros and cons. Which is, y’know, kinda what my intention is. Not to “bully” people out of their ideas, but to discuss the issues as I see them, with the hope of improvement.
Where are you going with this? That people should be able to call each other names, but not to constructively criticise each other’s system designs, and that would make the forum more welcoming?
[color=#FF0000]No-one was discussing freedom of expression until you brought it up[/color], seemingly just as a defence for your personal attacks on people. Alista’s concern was about bullying, not having the right to call people names.
It’s not my opinion that complete freedom of expression is a good thing on a forum like this. I agree with Diatribe’s rules of no personal attacks and no racist/sexist/homophobic language. I think the phrase “play the ball, not the man” sums it up best. Personal insults come all too easily in a remote, text-based medium like this, in a way that they are less likely to in person. Things get misinterpreted easily, and flaming spirals out of control.
But there has to be actual discussion of larp, even if it sometimes makes people uncomfortable to be disagreed with, otherwise what’s the point? That was my point above - that being disagreed with may be upsetting for some people, but that doesn’t make it bullying.
[quote=“Xcerus”]I am not overly sensitive when it comes to what people say about stuff - eventualy it gets to me sure. I just wonder how many larps have been shut down by the combined efforts of yourself and Exquire with your ‘contructive critisicm’
[color=#80FF00]Undeniably I have critisized a few larp systems and the way they are run / have been run. However I have always attended these larps as an open individual to see if I would enjoy them.[/color] The only larp I have not attended and also not critisized is Blair’s time travel larp.
I have gone out of my way not to attend because I rage at time travel in films and TV when they totally break reality. Surpisingly it is also the reason why I like Dr who. They actually account for the universe getting totally messed up by time travel.
I guess what I am trying to say is - if you are going to critisize somthing or have strong feelings about how things should or should not be run then at least have the decency to try somthing new. You might be totally correct and it will confirm your position (at least to yourself). Alternativly you may actually learn somthing that you can use in the future.
Prime example on this one:
You criticised damage calls in games for mele.
Games in NZ now have damage calls.
NOTE: I DO NOT TAKE CREDIT FOR THIS. It is just an observation. Trust me, if i was taking the credit - you would know about it [/quote]
Seems like we’re now going to rehash the conversation that annoyed you in the first place.
First off, are you seriously saying that no-one should comment on a game system until they’ve played it? If you saw some rules that you thought looked problematic for whatever reason, you’d never comment on them until you’d played the game? Even if you’d seen similar rules work poorly at games in the past, or have specific issues? Well, I would. Games can be judged on design. However, I have learned a few things about how people take criticism of their games or ideas personally, so I’d try to be more sensitive to that than I have been in the past.
Secondly, as I said at the time, I have lots of experience with larps with damage calls. It’s not some amazing new thing you imported from the UK - it’s something that has always been common in NZ, and I’ve run games that way myself. Take the Stargate rules that were running before your game, for example. As I said when we discussed this, for Mordavia we deliberately phased damage calls out so that all strikes did one damage. It originally had damage calls. I think it was better without.
Thirdly, I’d have to say your reaction (especially including the ongoing grudge you seem to hold against me for this one discussion, which flares up into personal abuse intermittently) took criticism of a set of rules much more personally than others have. When I pointed out issues with having strikes to the torso do 2 damage to the Knightshade designers, we had a rational discussion about the pros and cons. Which is, y’know, kinda what my intention is. Not to “bully” people out of their ideas, but to discuss the issues as I see them, with the hope of improvement.[/quote]
[color=#FF0000]RED:[/color]The thing is, people are entitled to their opinions. You are entitled to state your opinions, and the people who disagree with you are entitled to state theirs, and to do so in strong terms if they want. So long as they’re not attacking you personally or trying to suppress you then it’s not bullying. It’s debate. If lots of people disagree with you, it doesn’t mean they are ganging up on you or that they are an in-group. It just means that the local consensus has swung towards opinions that don’t happen to agree with yours. Posted by you: Mon, 03 Oct, 2011 10:19
Care to show me where I started talking about freedom of expression before you did in this thread?
[color=#80FF00]Green:[/color] I never said you have to attend to comment on games. I said that I always attend a game that I have criticized and that I will avoid even commenting on a game if I know that I may make inflammatory comments at an event. Once has this occurred at a game and I am not longer attending that game because I care more for the friendship of the GM’s than for larping.
In regards to damage calls: If they are so terrible then why do so many long running very successful international systems use them?
If you find a suitable cost effective solution for damage in a gun game without using projectiles (players eyes) then I am more than happy to take it on board.
Eh. I’m hopping off this merry-go-round before I get quesy. Happy to discuss larp design in a thread dedicated to it, or bullying/welcoming culture in a thread about that, but this is just too messy.
EDIT: if anyone is interested to read the discussions we’re talking about and decide for themselves whether they amounted to bullying, click these:
- The original thread on the Star Wars forum.
- The thread about simple rules that I started in the General forum.
I recognise that my approach may have been seemed overbearing at first, it’s an issue with my online communication style that I’m working on. But I still think that making suggestions about rules, and having disagreements about rules, are valid things to do on Diatribe.
[quote=“grrrlshapedthing”]… feel like I have been welcomed into a family… people who don’t know my friend at all are friendly and nice to me, everyone is encouraging and helpful.[/quote]You’re saying this made me think of after the St Wolfgang’s: Inferno game (the one where we went into a small hole in the ground to simulate hell) . After we’d all finally gotten out of the cave, and cleaned ourselves up enough to be permitted into people’s cars, we went to the local shop for dinner. In the end, my favourite part of the entire day was actually the dinner (which is saying something, cause that game was great), because I enjoyed sitting around and talking to people over our food and shared experience. I figured that’s what the great ‘family meal time’ where everyone actually wants to sit around and talk to each other is like.
I’ve had the same thing with the meals at Chimera as well.
My favourite part of the game was when we were exiting the cave. I’d already been into and out of the cave about 6-7 times at that point, ferrying in and out crew and gear.
I think it was the last trip out, and there was maybe four of us just taking a break in the cave. We were in a little passage, to small to stand in, that had a steep slippery slope that people were struggling to negotiate.
At this point, after a very physical day, people could have started getting tired and grumpy, but they didn’t. We sat around, took a ten minute break, ate some chocolate and drunk some fizzy water and eventually hauled out tired sorry arses out of the cave.
I enjoyed that part of the game most because, to an extent, adversity reveals character in people. And in this instance it was showing me I was underground with some really nice people.
Hmm… maybe it’s the combination of caves and food? XD.
It’s Stockholm Syndrom. True.
One comment I meant to make about the original post about US larp is that it seems a bit harsh on battle games like Dagorhir.
Battle games aren’t larps. If people want to get together just to fight, with minimal to no costume or roleplay, then it doesn’t seem fair to judge them by the quality of the costume, roleplaying, setting, etc. That’s like judging the combat practices that have happened in Auckland and Wellington based on roleplay and costume.
Battle games should be judged on their own merit. The main considerations might be whether the fighting is enjoyable and whether there are opportunities improve your fighting, tactics, combat leadership & communication, etc. Groups might also be judged on whether the people are fun to hang out with, I suppose. but saying they’re not very good larps is kinda missing the point.
In fire.
I think it ended more in a sizzle =D. Now, where are the Sausages?