Complex rules versus simple rules

Community Larp discussion
#21

Comments like “die, rebel!” obviously. You do seem intent on finding the worst possible interpretation of less complex options.

In most cases, it would be fairly clear if someone was pointing a weapon at you and it made a loud blaster noise. Games with cap guns don’t have any problem there. So largely, no IC comment would be needed.

That approach obviously requires some tech work to get good blaster sounds. Which is why I’ve been saying all along that one or two ranged calls could be used instead just to let people know you’ve shot them.

But calls like “double through” are not needed. The only reason to have them is to provide a lot of ability options, so that characters can gradually accumulate lots of powers. Which is what I said in the first place, the only reason for these complex ability mechanics is to allow for highly gradiated Power Up play.

Using a simple system, you can still have Power Up play. There are just fewer abilities, and you acquire them less often. You can still model Star Wars, as most of your calls have no specific relation to Star Wars so can be dropped easily. And you get all the advantages of a simpler system, outlined in my first post.

#22

ok so now im confused, your problem is not with high call quantity but instead with high powerd systems? Please correct me if im wrong.

Also Your right and wrong about the “die rebel” remark. Great for one on one, not so great for 5 rebels vs 5 imperials. Again - im trying to cater towards the same numbers that serenity pumped out so its unlikly that it will be 5 on 1 skirmishes and more likly to be 5 on 5 (or more)

#23

Sure, that’s wrong. My problem is with unnecessary complexity and verbal calls, not power. You want big power differences between characters in a simple system? No problem. You can achieve that with hit points, Force powers, or armour, none of which require calls. There’s no need for damage calls or calls like “through” and “blind” to achieve high power differences. They don’t suit larp, and they’re not required to model the Star Wars setting.

As I’ve said from the start, one or two verbal calls could be useful for ranged combat. In your combat example you have “Jimmy, shatter armour torso!” and so forth. In practice against a mob of five uniformed rebels, that’s going to be what? “Rebel on the left, shatter armour torso!” “Er… your left or ours?”

So really, no solution is ideal for identifying who’s been shot. The main thing is to get the target’s attention. Personally I’d prefer the blaster noise to get their attention because it’s immersive, and the next best thing would be an IC call, but I’m not arguing against an OOC call to identify who is being shot if there is confusion. And depending on the system, identifying a body part you’re shooting at may be needed. So basically, I don’t think we’re in a great deal of disagreement there.

My main point is that you don’t need calls like “double”, “through”, and “shatter”, either in ranged combat or melee. Those sort of calls can be simplified out. Same goes for counting separate hit points for each body part.

#24

As a previous note I’d like to point out that I think KS is moderately complex with a moderate level of calls.
I’ve kind of gone for the middle ground, which is relevant to the points I have made. I have attempted to appeal to both those who like both sides of the coin (ITS IMPOSSIBLE BUT HEY!)

I have a counter argument against IC visual cues being able to replace calls though, while a nice idea, they suck anytime you have low visibility (which is often in larp). In fact this the only reason there are calls associated with some actions in KS (like sap, backstab and cut-throat).

The range of calls you have presented offer a large range of possibilities BUT the point being made is that you could dispatch with some of them without lowering the quality of game. I advocate that you have a look at what is achieved with each of them.

For example - THROUGH - which is kind of like back stab. This could be removed and skills or weapons that can do this could do more damage. This way the person who has afforded armour is still damaged but still benefits from having armour, where as it has a devastating but equal effect on unarmoured opponents. So through becomes double or tripple.

Next - to remove multiple damage locations - if you wish to disable someone by targetting legs, how about making that a CALL? You remove 5 locations, replace with global HP and insert a call “Disable (target location)”. You still lower their overall HP except when they fall down, they are disabled not dead or dying (and they still only have to remember one lot
of HP, thereby representing the fact you were being careful. Ok so it uses another call but crops out a large complexity.

Shatter armour - rather than do this, how about you make the skill to allow the targetting of the armour instead, so the call would be “person x, double/tripple, armour”. For the same reasons as removing THROUGH really. So on the persons character sheet it says Shatter armour - allows specific targetting of armour and does double/tripple when doing so. The calls are reduced but the effect is the same.

I also accept that they have worked in past games but the saying if it ain’t broke don’t fix it simply doesn’t wash with me. If you don’t try any different then how do you know?

#25

Why would you keep the double & triple damage calls in the Star Wars setting, Jared?

#26

We did try the system with fewer calls during the beta test stage, it was chaos. People didnt know who was targeting who and some of the calls where really unspecific.

I do agree that Single Running man does cause issues however Single Jarred, Anna, Matt, Porl etc etc is not difficult… lets face it the larp scene is not exactly huge and there is a very good chance that if you have heard of larp in nz you will at least know one of the people you want to shoot at by their ooc name…

OOC calls Compaired to IC calls - whats the difference?

As far as I can see the only difference is that it sounds better and you guys want to hit the immersion factor. Im sorry to tell you this but if you have problems with people yelling damage calls at you I fail to see how you can immerse yourself into a space ship when you are standing in a scout hut. Be resonable, you either have a good imagination or you don’t. You don’t have an imagination capable of drowning out the flurdelis and replacing it with an imperial cog that is incapable of, if not replacing, then imagining bolts of plasma flying across the room at you.

Larp is as much about creativity and using your imagination as it is about immersion.

Jarred: Your comments are as always 100% to the point and helpful. I will definatly consider some of the idea’s you have thrown my way.

At this point I would like to point out that alot of the calls that are going to be used will have cooldowns and cannot be stacked. So a Triplethroughknockdownblind call is never going to happen.

#27

Why? Strictly speaking I was using it as an example as to how you could remove other calls. Basically I wouldn’t have double or tripple as calls by themself. Useful if you want to have varying levels of damage. Even StW’s has different damage. Pistol vs. lazer cannon type deal or troll vs. goblin.

My point was, you could use “a damage call” of some description to do the job of a multitude of other calls.

#28

Got that, but what damage call would you suggest?

#29

Dunno, hadn’t thought that far to be quite honest. I am quite happy with only 2 levels of damage in KS though, prefixed with “Mighty”. I’ll get out my thesaurus! :stuck_out_tongue:

#30

If I have to yell out “John, 2 damage to your arm” to shoot someone, what do I do if I don’t know the person’s name?
Or, if there are two people called John?
Or, if the person is wearing a hooded Jedi robe, and I can’t see who it is?

EDIT: It’s an interesting way of running gun combat where the most dangerous person on the block is the one with instant name recall…

#31

So, I ran this game Nibelungen with blasters, aliens, and outer space ship-to-ship fighting among other things. It had no rules at all.

What happened? Lots, and we got through it. Everyone was pretty clear on what was going on around them at all times. People repaired robots, swapped mechanical memories, raided and captured a spaceship, met spies, undertook research, talked to a computer, made friends with the enemy hiding out on Earth, and lived in a simulated (Auckland) city where a massive galactic empire was operating.

I’m happy to give you everything we learned along the way.

One of those things is that people know what to do when they’re shot at. The answer is that if you think it would have hit you (this is a silent/instant mutual decision), you go down. You might be in pain, you might have lost a limb, does it matter? Nah.

The ray guns (I have two of them) were a whole lot of work, but making more would (now) be easy. They vibrate and flash to inform you that they’re on. They release a whole lot o’ loud and burst a red light out the front when you pull the trigger. They have a safety switch and they’re a joy to use.

And talk about getting the right sounds on the battlefield!

If I was doing them again, I’d make a hardier construction with fewer parts, lose the safety and just have something that shone lights and made sound when the trigger was pulled. “Ready now” is a nice feeling to have, but it was a little complex to construct and that means less rugged.

Can ray guns smash through walls? Of course not, otherwise I would have physrepped them with diggers.

The space ship, by the way, is a multi-user space flight and combat simulator run through killer home-made home-theatre. The computer handles all the rules, meaning this larp had heat-seaking projectiles without calls. We used a modified version to fly the Hindenburg, and it made it real.

I want my lan party larp where we have a spaceship each and beat on the GM-designed mothership for an hour with others in the next room watching the battle unfold on a projector screen. Star Wars could do this with machines handling the rules.

Anyway, guns. Want a sniper rifle? I’d love to make one. I reckon this: the “difficulty” is power, because “the beam needs heaps to go such a long way”. So this thing could only be used by plugging it in to a big power source.

Luckily, buildings have big power sources. We have extension cords, a generator, and I’ve even got a UPS kicking about. I’d mount a very large siren speaker inside some PCV pipe, a lead running out the back to plug in to your source. The user would need to wear earmuffs, completing the look. It would look like a laser gun version of a bazooka with a laser sight.

When someone pulled the trigger on a 240V siren, everyone would know. Don’t worry, they would. If you turned to see it pointing at you, you’d know that the next thing to do is look down, pretend to attempt to hold you guts in, and fall down dead.

When this wouldn’t work would be:

  1. When you’re shooting someone in a night club from a neighbouring building (wouldn’t hear).
  2. When you’re shooting at a pack of people in broad daylight. I think the polite thing to do here would be for the targets to choose quickly among themselves.
  3. In a battle with more than 20 people grouped together.

So anyway, the force!

I really like the idea of the force being used as Ryan has suggested. Hell, I wanna get together with Ryan and play force-games chucking each other around the room already.

I think you could physrep lightening, but it might take some extra props for the right effect. I’m thinking camera flashes, which are expensive and fragile, but fricken awesome and totally achievable for the frequency lightening would be required. Hand signals plus camera flash or remote-controlled strobe light.

Hand signals are meaningful and intuitive. My answers for “how to” were the same as Ryan’s before I read them. They sound really fun to do as adults, being able to interpret actions together rather than seeing who rolled higher at the start.

On philosophy (and quickly), I think a good test of rules is: Can I explain these quickly to someone who doesn’t speak much English? Or: Can someone drop in on this and play?

Imagine the neighbours come over to see what all the noise was about last night. Can they take one look at what we’re doing and start playing along? You know, assuming they’ve seen Star Wars.

I’m part of a network called Couchsurfing. It’s fantastic: tired backpackers turn up at my house all the time, and crash on a mattress upstairs. The next day we usually go out and do something together. We go to yoga, live music, plays, movies, debates, or we make something (music, furniature etc). I should be able to bring them to larp games!

They’ll all have seen Star Wars and they’ll quickly learn how to use foam weapons. They should be able to use the Force, blasters, and even space ships too. Why not? Remember, these people are translating everything we say back in to Indian/Swedish/Swahili/Danish/German/American/Russian before they can act on it. They often don’t know words like “shatter” or “shield” or “double”.

I’m going to come right out and say it: I can do two of these things at a time:

  1. Play a character
  2. Do maths of any type
  3. Fight.
#32

Don’t worry, I’ve done thousands and thousands of hours of fighting and I still struggle to get it right :smiley: There aren’t many fighting sims I haven’t tried because I’m a sword fighting junkie.

One thing I have learned over the years is not to care too much when the rules are basically ignored by the players. You can write whatever you want down on paper and hope that the players can remember everything, but at the end of the day if you can’t summarise it in a couple of sentences, what you write down won’t ever have a big impact on the game.

I’d suggest that combat rules be submitted to the The Elevator Test with success being defined as first time players being able to actually fight after a 150-200 word explanation.

You may need a lot more than 150-200 words for character generation, but that is entirely different, and I’m happy for that to be a longer document.

#33

If you want to run complex larps, go for it. They’re too much like a table top RPG for my tastes, but if they get a few table top RPGers off the sofa and running around doing some exercise, then they still get my vote for A Worthwhile Thing ™. 8)

#34

One notion that seems to be coming up around immersion is that more rules are needed to make it work? As well as some pointed comments about people using their imaginations…

Immersion is about removing as much of the extraneous fluff as possible so your imagination CAN run wild and you get immersed (ha!) in the very things you’re imagining - if this means turning a call from an OOC “Blue shirt guy, Hold Person” into a more IC “By God’s grace your person is held!” then this shoud be a no brainer. The point behind this is that as you say - we’re already trying to mentally fudge the surroundings about us by not seeing the scout hall for what it is etc, but if we have to mentally fudge what’s happening right in front of us as well, then no amount of imagination will completely override the fact you’re standing there in a homemade costume, you’re definitely not in space, and that gun was probably $5.99 from the warehouse…

KS and Wolfies to a lesser extent still get a bit of this - “Drain” is a perfect example. Obviously I don’t want anybody (ok, maybe there are one or two exceptions to this…) actually biting me, but seriously having a 6-foot-something dude lay ahand on my shoulder, step in as close as possible and leer the word at me in as creepy voice as he can manage (yeah, go you :stuck_out_tongue:) will beat a tap and a flat “Drain 2 points”. I guess the word I’m after is “context”. Mighty blow suffers as you say - our aim was to have the double effect but make the call as IC as we could, but got snagged by the lack of info trap.

So where’s the balance? Well, from my reclined position in this comfy couch the balance comes simply from being clever. Have your calls, make em work as best you can, but for the LARP-god’s sakes don’t just settle at “Triple-Knockdown-Armourbreaker” or whatever. Look at alternate ways to convey the effect happening in a way that everyone will understand (even if this means a small amount of reading beforehand. SWVH is only what, 12 pages long including the game brief?), and can be as IC as possible so instead of taking away from the moment with a small reality anchor you’re actually adding to it with a small fantasy projection.

2c.

#35

Another area I feel subtly undermining about rules is the implication that the opinion that rule writer has a more value than the opinion of the rest of the players. I think you can run a larp where you trust players to ad-lib stuff like combat or force powers. I may be alone here (no, I see Craig in the wings) but I actually TRUST players to police themselves.

If I’m playing a star wars larp and I point a blaster at someone and go ZAP and they swing a convincing straight drive with their lightsaber, I’ll just fall down. I’ve seen the movies, I know what jedi do! Likewise, if I’m the Jedi and some bounty hunter gets behind me with a blaster and shoots me without me seeing them, I’ll take it. I’m not going to call out “reflect” when they have me cold.

I’ve never found any combat sim combat to be immersive. Maybe I just have my head screwed on differently. Or, maybe, I just don’t know what immersion means :smiley:
I just find that excessive combat rules mean people stop trying to role play the combat and start a standing up variant of Magic the Gathering.

Amen to that. Someone putting in some real effort to making a drain look and feel a bit like a draining is so much better than “drain - 2hp”. I don’t need a rule book with numbers and special words in it to tell me how to role play this.

I once accidentally shot another player at a Nightmare Circle game. I had a cap gun. They ran out of the fog. BANG They fell down. Looks of disbelief on both our faces. They later died from the wound. The rules never really came in to play, it just felt right. Fantastic RP experience! Excellent non use of rules.

#36

I run two larps, Skirmish and Multiverse.

Skirmish is much more call-heavy than Multiverse. The advantage of this is purely tactical, and I think that’s what Adam (Xcercus) is proposing with his approach to the Star Wars ruleset. i.e. increased complexity = increased tactical options.

Skirmish has long been a system where n00bs turn up with no gear, having not read the rules and having never played a larp game - yet we have been consistently able to get n00bs to successfully participate with a minimum of explanation. And I would put it down to the clarity of the vocal calls - when a spell or ability is used it is clearly named so the target/victim is able to respond appropriately. This is what Adam’s Star Wars game seeks to achieve.

I agree with Ryan that many of the rules in Mordavia were superfluous and the game benefited from them being removed. However, there were systemic considerations as to why some of those rules were removed. For example, I never saw a Fire and Ice scroll (which shattered a shield or weapon). It wasn’t around so it wasn’t used, ergo, it wasn’t missed.

This logic does not carry over to a system where the abilities are useful and available, and are therefore tactical options.

I do agree that when moving a story from one medium to another (e.g. movie to larp), then it is reasonable to expect that some adjustment must take place. I had to make significant adjustments to Moorcock’s Multiverse in order to bring it to larp, and I suspect that Star Wars is no different.

I broadly agree with Ryan’s assertion that, where possible, any system will benefit from simplification. Yet I agree with Adam with respect to his vision for Star Wars needing to maintain a high level of tactical options. If those tactical options can be handled via non-verbal cues, then perhaps that is the way forward.

But, some cues will still need to be verbal, and I have no problem with that.

I’d like to try the system before I judge it. I may not like it, but I’m happier to pass judgement with the benefit of experience. Then again, I live adjacent to a railway line. It didn’t take long for me to grow accustomed to the regular noise of trains passing by…

#37

[quote=“Derek”]I’ve never found any combat sim combat to be immersive. Maybe I just have my head screwed on differently. Or, maybe, I just don’t know what immersion means :smiley:
I just find that excessive combat rules mean people stop trying to role play the combat and start a standing up variant of Magic the Gathering.[/quote]

A big factor in whether to have multi-point damage and so forth is how gamey you like your larp to feel. Mike likes gamey larps, and he describes it as “tactical options”. Craig doesn’t like them, he’s happy without rules. I’m in the middle, preferring simple rules over no rules for most larp.

My point remains that gameyness, and the complex rules that enable it, is not required in a larp. Some people like it, some don’t, but it isn’t needed, you can run the same larp with the same characters and broad options for character action without it. You want to admit that you just like having lots of “tactical options”, i.e. a gamier larp? Fine, that’s a matter of taste. But there’s no pretending that they’re required, they’re just rules candy for hard-core gamers who are turned on by complexity. And they’re better suited to other mediums than larp, mediums like tabletop roleplay where it’s really possible to calculate separate numeric damage for each limb while and so forth, because you’re not playing in real time.

In larp, the idea that everyone is actually playing according to the complex rules is just a pointless pretense. People just fudge them. So why not simplify them down to rules that are actually possible to follow in real time, or at least closer to it? As many people have pointed out, they can only just keep track of global hit points and single damage.

I’d wager that more people are put off by extreme gaminess of the sort Adam is proposing for this system than attracted.

#38

I liked the social paint ball rules from many years ago. “If you’re shot, you’re dead, go back to the starting point and restart”.

#39

I seek to counter the Skirmish example with my bandwidth of abilities:

  1. Play a character
  2. Do maths of any type
  3. Fight.
    Choose two.

In Skirmish, I can fight and do maths because I don’t need to play a character. I can solve puzzles in character (though I actually kind of prefer not to), so long as I’m not fighting.

No wonder the rules seem to go out the window when people are fighting and holding their characters. And these are the best experiences!

#40

Here’s what I might do for a Star Wars system. It’s not the “no system” approach that Craig might take, or the “system ready to be ignored” approach that Derek might take. It’s gamey but minimal.

The result I’m aiming for is that if you shoot an NPC stormtrooper or any other kind of mook, or hit them with a lightsaber, they go straight down. If you hit a PC hero or villain, they can usually take a few hits before taking wounds. That’s what I see happening in the movies. Actually, in the movies lightsaber fights are usually “cinematic duals” where they clash swords a lot, which doesn’t usually happen in larp so I’ve gone for the next best thing.

Possibly this could be made even simpler.

Hit points
Hit points allow a character to take some hits before being seriously wounded. Hit points represent fighting skills that allow blows to be turned or shots to be mostly dodged so that that only a minor flesh wound is received. The average person or soldier has no hit points.

Weapons
All weapons do 1 hit point of damage. If the target has no hit points remaining then different weapons cause different wound effects. Primitive weapons such as spears wound the body part hit. Blasters, lightsabers and cannon sever limbs, or kill if the torso is hit.

Calls
Verbal calls are not usually required when hitting or shooting people, but if a player is not aware that they have been hit or shot then an IC or OOC call to alert them is appropriate. Some characters can call “arm” or “leg” when shooting, in which case the shot will land on the most inconvenient arm or a leg of the target (the arm holding a weapon, or that isn’t wounded).

Armour
Armour does not defend against lightsabers or cannon. If you are wearing limb armour, then primitive weapon attacks to that limb will have no effect. Blasters will no longer sever the limb, they will only wound it. If you are wearing torso armour, blasters will no longer kill, they will only wound your torso.

Durable
If you have the ability “Durable”, then blaster shots to your torso only incapacitate you (like torso armour). You can also continue to fight with a wounded arm or leg.

Wounds
There are three kinds of wound: kill, sever, and wound. Wounds can land on a leg, an arm, or the torso.

If your limb is wounded, it can no longer be used. You must drop any items you are holding, or swap them to an unwounded hand. If your leg is wounded you can only limp, and not run. If your limb is severed, it has been cut off. Any items you held must be dropped. If your leg is severed, you cannot stand. When any limb is wounded or severed, then you are also incapacitated unless you are Durable.

If your torso is wounded, you are incapacitated.

If you take a “kill” wound, then you are incapacitated and will die in 1 minute unless you receive advanced medical care (which will reduce the kill to a torso wound).

Incapacitation
If you are incapaciated you must fall to the ground immediately. You cannot move, attack, or use abilities. You can move your hands to anything within reach (e.g. to pick something up). You can speak.

Finishing blow
If you are incapacitated then you can be killed immediately by a person standing over you who shoots you or hits you with any weapon. They cannot land a finishing blow while under attack, as they must be able to concentrate. They must be standing still. They may call “Finishing Blow” if it is not clear to you what they are doing.

Healing
There are separate abilities to restore hit points, to heal wounded or severed limbs and torsos, and to save people who are about to die.

Force powers
See previous suggestions for larp-suitable powers using gestures. The powers would all have names, e.g. “Force Choke”, and if the target does not notice the gesture (perhaps because they are distracted, not aware of the attack, or it is dark) then the name of the power can be stated as an OOC call.