Advice on live-combat

Inspired by Chimera, a couple of us in Wellington have just acquired some weaponry for future live-combat games. The next question: how do we fight with them? There are a lot of videos on the web with instructions for boffer fighting, but these seem to be American, and focused very much on beating the shit out of people. So, what is the preferred style in this part of the world, and are there any handy resources showing people how to do it?

(Oh, and I have to say: a lot of US weapons suck. I prefer swords that look like swords, not like an odd padded truncheon).

The old-fashioned US style is to pad the weapon heavily, and hit heavily. However, some of them are now moving towards narrower weapons that they hit more lightly with.

The UK style is to have quite heavy, thickly latexed weapons but to almost entirely pull your blow so that you only hit with a light tap. Basically pulling your blow involves reducing the momentum of the weapon at the last moment, so that it looks like a full blow as it approaches but hits very lightly. Takes some practice.

The style here in Auckland is somewhere in the middle, but closer to UK style. If you’ve acquired some Ex-Caliber weapons, they are rather softer than most UK latex weapons. So you can hit with a fairly firm tap and still not feel much, which is what we tend to do here. In the thick of a big combat people sometimes hit moderately hard, and it’s usually not an issue. No worse than a momentary sting that subsides in a few seconds, certainly no bruising.

The other questions are what locations you’re allowed to hit, what types of strikes are allowed, and how fast you can hit.

Most larps here have a “no head shots” rules, so hits to the head are avoided OOC and do no damage IC. This is partially because of concern over being hit in the eye, partially because being hit in the head is more unpleasant than being hit elsewhere, and partially (at least for me) because regular head impact can cause closed head injury, which has an incremental effect on the brain, even if the head blows don’t bother the person. Soccer players and boxers appear to be more prone to Parkinsons because of this, and I’d hazard that SCA players run this risk. In the UK head shots are sometimes allowed because people think that otherwise the “invulnerable” head would be used as a shield. Believe it… or not. Never seen that happen here. Hits to the genitals and/or breasts are sometimes also discouraged.

Latex weapons are usually not intended for thrusting. Thrusts to sensitive areas, for example in the armpit or that glance upwards into the face, can be painful. But more important, thrusting with most latex weapons gradually damages the tip, and in the worst instance the core could come loose and protrude from the foam. In which case you really wouldn’t want to be thrusted at with it. My advice is only thrust if there’s no other blow available, do so lightly (relax the elbow and don’t follow through, instead let the blade angle to one side - this is a technique used by metal weapon fighters). Also, check the tip of your sword now and then to make sure it’s intact.

You can feel if the core is approaching the surface of the tip by squeezing and manipulating it gently. Don’t manipulate it hard, as that can damage it. The tip is usually the first part of a sword to go because it takes the brunt of impacts, and needs to be checked before every game. For the same reason, don’t lean on your sword with the tip on the ground. If you lean it against a wall, rest it on the pommel.

Some weapons such as spears and arrows are built especially to be safe for stabbing. The construction process is to put a stopper on the end of the core, something like a metal coin, to stop the core coming through. Then layer dense foam (closed-cell foam, like camping mats but often denser) over that. Then layer soft foam (open-cell foam, which is upholstry foam) as the outermost layer. On impact, the soft foam absorbs most of the momentum, then the harder foam absorbs the rest, so hopefully the core doesn’t press too hard against the stopper.

In terms of how rapidly you strike, most games have some rule to stop people tapping rapidly. It’s unrealistic for most weapons, and not much fun to fight against. Such rules vary from just saying “don’t do that, it’s lame” and saying only the first blow in a flurry counts which is the usual approach taken here in Auckland, to requiring players to draw their weapon back 90 degrees between strokes or to hit different areas in turn, to only allowing 1 strike to count per second. Personally I find just discouraging it and telling people only the first blow counts works fine.

In terms of general combat rules, bodily contact is usually not allowed. So no pushing, tripping, grabbing, etc. Same goes for pushing against someone with your shield. This is to stop people being knocked down or getting overexcited and hurting someone. Only hit people with your foam weapon. You might have noticed at Camelot that Derek and Vanya (Gawaine and Lancelot) were clashing quite heavily with their shields and pushing against each other, but that was by mutual consent and it’s not the norm here.

Shields make a huge difference in combat. Best to pad the edges so people don’t get accidently knocked by them. My shields are actually made entirely of foam, which is fairly common in the UK. They latex over the top of them, Bryn can show you examples of that. In fact, doing some fighting with Bryn will teach you all this stuff in a much more practical fashion.

Your best bet is to have a bit of a play with the weapons, do some duels, then some group vs. group fights. Fighting in a larger combat, in the dark, or in a desparate IC situation is quite a different experience to a casual duel, and requires more care. Have fun. Personally I love a good combat, and I’ve had the most unexpected people enjoy fighting with those Ex-Caliber weapons - my workmates, my parents. It’s clearly pretty easy, and those are good starter weapons because they’re quite soft.

I’m not an experienced boffer weapon fighter, but from what I’ve seen ‘beating the shit out of people’ is probably a good place to start!
Otherwise you could try to apply non-boffer styles, skills and technique - but other people can no doubt advise you on that :slight_smile:

Oh oh oh live combat.

Personally its my favourite part of LARP in general regardless of the rule set.

For moderately complex combat guff, check out the link in my signature block to the Knightshade rules.

I’d just add, if you want to get better at fighting, fight with matched weapons (swords that are the same and shields that are the same) because you’ll learn off each other. TALK to each other after fighting and discuss how hard you want to be hitting, if you think individuals are hitting too hard (or soft) or taking blows too hard (or soft).

And use your feet. Fighting is mostly done with feet :smiley:

I focused mostly on foam-weapon specific stuff.

Were you also interested in general fighting advice on stance, distance, defense and attacks? That stuff’s best shown in practice, but I’m sure you can be deluged with tips here if you’re interested. There are quite a few trained fencers, metal-weapon fighters, and SCA fighters in our midst.

Also of note, a lot of LARPers don’t have any formal training. As Derek says, best way to figure it out is through practice.

My personal experience is that those with formal training tend to beat us untrained folk senseless although that being said, they sometimes are suprised by really unconventional things untrained fighters do.

Also, larp weapons are generally (always) completely unlike real weapons in weight and speed and typically we have rules like “no head shots” and avoid joints. I know of at least one martial arts trained player who struggles with his own training, as all of the killing strikes he has learned specifically target the head or joints (like wrists).

As far as contact levels, its really down to those involved to an extent, to find a level suitable for most people you need to get a good few people involved.
For myself, I can quite happily spar with blows just below the bruising threshold (or even past). This tends to happen with people I know well and we all know our own thresholds.

From what I have experienced, that level of contact is far in excess of what is required for LARP and light to moderate pulled blows seems to be the accepted norm.
The other benefit of lighter contact is that when someones head (or groin) appears in front of your blade (for whatever reason) and you hit them, they are less likely to be injured.
I have taken a wild swing to the head and seen stars from a boffer, while modern latex weapons tend to sting more if you get sconed a good one.

Other points to note, try to keep combatants swinging on 45’s or horizontal.
While I agree with Ryan’s comments about latex weapons and thrusting, you CAN approximate a thrust pushing forward and then tapping with the blade end with a flick of the wrist.
Its trickier and you need to aim past the body and angle in when you do it but it does the same trick.

Other points of note, encourage players to count HP correctly (if you have them) however a couple of common sense provisions make gameplay a bit more stream lined.

Firstly - if you forget if you are on 3 or 4 (or whatever) take the lower value and keep playing. If you are reduced to 0 in this manner and manage to figure out you are actually on 1 while lying there, for petes sake stay on the ground. Theres nothing more annoying than people springing back up after they have gone down. Of course, an extra blow to keep them down always goes a long way.

Second - the Mobbing rule - if you can’t count your HP because the blows are falling thick and fast, then you have been mobbed. Fall down on 0 and go from there. Theres no way you could have survived being mobbed anyways.

Combat calls - in a regular stand up fight theres no need for combat calls. If you feel the need to include some other effects make sure the calls are clear and standardised if possible.
The trend is to couch calls in rhetoric for immersive purposes otherwise clear and simple works.

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]I focused mostly on foam-weapon specific stuff.

Were you also interested in general fighting advice on stance, distance, defense and attacks? That stuff’s best shown in practice, but I’m sure you can be deluged with tips here if you’re interested. There are quite a few trained fencers, metal-weapon fighters, and SCA fighters in our midst.[/quote]

I was mostly interested in the general culture of how hard to hit, and where.

Next step: need to get a shield.

Unless you have already set your heart on a specific shield style, I recommend a round shield with a boss and hand grip in the center. The classic “Viking” shield. They work better for larping because you can extend very low to guard your foot and blows are so light, they’re never really knocked around. The heater shields that are strapped to the forearm are probably more common, but I believe inferior because to guard the foot, you have to stoop into a poor posture. Forearm strapped shields also have a tendency to redirect blows into heads if used incorrectly. Which is unfortunately, quite common.

Others will have a differing opinion, and I’m happy to meet all comers on the field of combat, where we can discuss the advantages and disadvantages in a more … traditional manner :smiling_imp:

Unless you have already set your heart on a specific shield style, I recommend a round shield with a boss and hand grip in the center. The classic “Viking” shield. They work better for larping because you can extend very low to guard your foot and blows are so light, they’re never really knocked around. The heater shields that are strapped to the forearm are probably more common, but I believe inferior because to guard the foot, you have to stoop into a poor posture. Forearm strapped shields also have a tendency to redirect blows into heads if used incorrectly. Which is unfortunately, quite common.[/quote]

I was thinking a roundshield anyway because it would be easy to prop.

So, how do you make them? I hear coreflute is a desirable material…

Corflute is good.

I use corrugated cardboard as well, if I can’t find corflute, and as long as you cover it in light fabric (like calico) and paint it, it lasts just fine.

There is a pattern for a shield boss here:

I’ll be happy to teach what little I know to people, it’s just a bit of practice and getting used to a particular weapon.

As most people have said, a big shield is your friend.

Cheers,

Bryn.

The only amendment I want to put to anything above is that the UK weapons are actually moving towards lighter, more controlable weapons, the safety being that lighter mass will impact less, and the greater control makes pulling blows much easier. The only other thing to watch is some weapons sometimes get a “sharpness” to the edge through being carved so, or the latex layers being applied in such a way that they actually have a fairly solid edge to them. It’s a little thing, but it adds so much to the chance of injury from focusing the impact zone. The other cause is often called “blading”, and it’s when there’s two layers of foam side by side which have been carved back, and the very hard thin layer of glue between them is exposed before being latexed over resulting in a very hard very thin striking surface, which will quickly erode leaving an actually sharp blade of glue.

I gather the continental European latex weapons like Forgotten Dreams from Germany are lighter than the UK ones. When I was in the UK a few years back the latex weapons produced there still seemed on the heavier side, I think due to a thick layer of latex. But a lot of people in the UK are now using weapons made on the continent, because they’re coming out with cheaper mass-produced weapons whereas UK weapons tend to be more low-quantity and more labour intensive to produce.

I’m sure this is good advice, but just be aware that the hardness we’re talking about is very relative. In my experience, once you have a weapon made of foam, weight is the key factor in injury. As long as the core doesn’t poke out, you should find that pretty much any padded sword is “safe” to do stupid things with.

Can’t entirely agree there. A really hard, badly-made foam weapon being swung wildly can do actual damage. I had my nose broken by one a long time ago.

Its all a balance, a poorly used weapon of good quality can hurt and a poorly made weapon used well is unlikely to hurt you.

The biggest problem is that us humans are squishy and reckless (in general).

As I said, it’s all relative. A broken nose is a pretty minor injury, and that’s about as bad as it gets with boffers. Maybe the odd scratched eyeball. Compare that to real life…

The UK ones seem to be moving to lighter carbon fibre cores (or at least the ones I played with over the weekend are), though unlike the german/continental weapons (which actually aren’t so common) they are also weighted for better balance, compared to the ultralights which tend to be end-heavy which i personally find kinda lame. They also look a hell of a lot better.

The game I played in over the weekend also allowed headshots, and I have to say that reasonable concerns aside, if people are controlling their blows like they should be - and here there is actually very little/no difference between NZ and the UK - then once you get past the shock of it, being hit in the head is no worse than being hit anywhere else. The important thing here though would be to make sure all involved in a given match/game/scenario are consenting to the same “rules” of combat.

This is the sticking point for me. When someone starts to larp, they don’t require, or often get, any training in weapons fighting, or taught how to pull shots. At least, I was never offered any, and have kind of muddled along, probably inflicting hurting blows without realising it. I know other fighting groups hold weekly sessions, but there doesn’t seem to be anywhere to practise/train with larp weapons. This discussion is the only thing I can recall, other than the 2 minutes of pre-game bashing around. Don’t mean to sound complaining, and impetous on my part could have changed things, but I thought i’d point out that many, newcomers especially, will have zero experience of weapons use before starting to larp.
It has been one of my long term ideas, to see a monthly (say) training session. A relaxed, not in character or in costume time where we could possibly upskill our weapon use. Make a regular social event in a park, or large back yard, perhaps adjourning to a pub afterwards?