NOTE: I’ve split the discussion of larp, IP, and GW from this thread. Apologies for any double-ups, it was a tricky split. ~ Ryan
[color=#808080]Hey all,
I’ve been tossing an idea around my head about a LARP set in the Warhammer 40000 universe. Probably something similar to “Death Unto Darkness” run inthe UK:
Nerf guns / water pistols, etc.
Is there any interest in something like that?
Jon[/color]
I think there probably would be, there certainly was when someone else raised it years and years ago. (Um, somewhere in the forums?) But - one of the things that came out of that conversation was that the company that owns Warhammer are highly protective of their IP, so it’s something to be careful about.
I’m definitely interested.
On the IP front, the Death unto Darkness lot donate any excess money to charity and don’t set games anywhere that’s defined in the 40K canon.
[quote=“Andrensath”]I’m definitely interested.
On the IP front, the Death unto Darkness lot donate any excess money to charity and don’t set games anywhere that’s defined in the 40K canon.[/quote]
I am not sure NZLARPS would be prepared to make a larp like this a project - an affiliate perhaps. The risk of legal action is insane with anything to do with GW.
Having said that - I know serveral people who have made their own space marine armor - and would love to play myself.
Operate on the “don’t ask don’t tell” principle and you’ll be fine. So long as you’re not silly enough to ask GW’s permission (which they will say no to), and you run non-for-profit, it’s just basic fan usage. In fact, it’s arguably just a homebrew variation of the published tabletop RPG.
Just call it Space Knights in the Distant Future. GW has rights to Space Marine but not Space Knight. Otherwise what Ryan said.
Also sound cool.
There’s a bunch of miniature manufacturers that are making “Space Fights in the Future with Power Armour and Bugs and Things” which I’d imagine GW are a lot more worried about - yet those manufacturers are still making those figures. I’d think the implication from that is as long as you don’t call it “Warhammer 40,000” or use any copyrighted or trademarked terms, there isn’t a lot GW could do about it, even if it is recognisable as probably being the same game.
Also, there’s a reasonably large cosplay following for 40K costumes (Sisters of Battle seem quite popular for some reason) and as far as I know GW takes no steps to stop those.
Bottom line is I think you’d be fine with it. And the costumes have the potential for awesomeness. (Not sure about the setting though; 40K fluff always struck me as a bit stupid and incredibly incoherent 
)
It’s a shame these discussions always end up about the IP, I suspect it distracts from the enthusiasm for the larp itself. 40K is well-loved, rich setting with heaps of awesome visual references to work from, could be great.
But while we’re on the topic, I don’t agree with those who’ve said to avoid the name. I say go ahead and call it 40K and use all their terms and stuff, it’s totally legit fan usage so long as you’re not making money off it. As you’ve pointed out there is already a larp in the UK doing exactly this.
Whatever way you go with it, I hope the community rolls with you and doesn’t niggle you about IP rubbish. I see no problem with NZLARPS having a 40K project if you happen to want to run it through the society. After all, there are Star Wars/Asterix/etc larps run at Chimera and that event is a project of NZLARPS, so we’re already exposed to this mythical legal harassment bugbear that people keep imagining.
I certainly don’t want to come off as against the project, I think it’s a great idea (I wanna be a Lictor…) but GW in particular do have a reputation for stomping on people when they can.
Having said that, I think if you wanted to use all the “right” names and such I’d think there’d be two ways you could go about it:
Or tell them to piss off. After all, they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.
Or tell them to piss off. After all, they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.[/quote]
Um. On what grounds would they not have a leg to stand on if someone is using their trademarked information? You’ve mentioned stuff like ‘legitimate fan usage’ in the past, but are you talking from an actual legal standpoint, or just on what’s becoming common practice? Because while a lot of writers don’t mind fanfiction of their stuff and some do mind but choose not to chase it, there are others who really do call their lawyers and cases that have really gone to court.
Look, I didn’t say “Don’t do it”, I said be careful. Be aware that there could be blowback and be able to cope with it.
I don’t think they’d have a leg to stand on ethically or legally, or in terms of public relations, and they’d know it and not pursue it. It would be like suing people for dressing up as Space Marines at a costume party.
Has there ever been a court case where a role-playing group was sued by a game company over copyright infringement for running a home-brewed version of a published game? I doubt it. Not only would it be terrible for the reputation of the company, I believe they’d also lose. What could possibly be more “fair use” of a copyrighted property than using it privately with a personal variation? We’re not talking about publishing a modified version for profit here, and we’re not talking about passing off the material as your own creation.
As for the 40K trademark (i.e. the logo) if I run a game of D&D, and put up a website for my campaign with the D&D logo on it with house rules and other material for my players, are WotC really going to come after me for infringement? It’s precisely the same. How many Star Wars fan sites are there out there using the logo? How much do they get harassed? In any case, there’s no specific need to use the 40K logo to run a 40k larp.
It’s not especially what you said, I’m just sick of people tiptoeing around copyright in general in relation to larp and making it a bigger deal than it is, it seems to come up almost every time a larp relating to a property is discussed. If we’re not for profit, and we give credit where its due, I don’t think we have anything to worry about or feel bad about. This kind of fan usage happens constantly in relation to all popular properties, and having such enthusiastic fans is actually a massive boon to the property owners. Why should we worry about it for larp in particular?
You know what? If someone announced that they were going to run “Happy Birthday: The Larp”, I’d be telling them not to do it. The company that owns that particular song is known for being litigious, and I very much doubt that they’d hold back because a particular production is run by amateurs.
If someone announced that they were going to run “Discworld: The Larp”, I’d have no comment to make other than that it’d be worth inviting Terry Pratchett because he might like to come, and if we’re lucky he might be in the country for a book signing. Because Pratchett is known for being relaxed about fan productions based on his writing as long as they’re nonprofit.
It depends on the property and the attitudes of the property owner. GW is known for being litigious. And incidentally - there’s no concept in New Zealand law of “fair use” or “parody” rights. There is in America, but not here.
[quote=“Stephanie”]You know what? If someone announced that they were going to run “Happy Birthday: The Larp”, I’d be telling them not to do it. The company that owns that particular song is known for being litigious, and I very much doubt that they’d hold back because a particular production is run by amateurs.
If someone announced that they were going to run “Discworld: The Larp”, I’d have no comment to make other than that it’d be worth inviting Terry Pratchett because he might like to come, and if we’re lucky he might be in the country for a book signing. Because Pratchett is known for being relaxed about fan productions based on his writing as long as they’re nonprofit.
It depends on the property and the attitudes of the property owner. GW is known for being litigious. And incidentally - there’s no concept in New Zealand law of “fair use” or “parody” rights. There is in America, but not here.[/quote]
No - but we do have common law - which states that rights of companies are only recognised under contract. Simply state no contract and you win. Case dismissed.
Back to the game - I would love (and I mean love) to play some npc’s for this - Nurgle enforcer type - or even a plague marine (woot) - I dunno but I think with my size I would make a fairly close plague marine.
Also - I would not mind playing an inquisitor or member of said inquisitors retinue 
all I can really say is DO IEEEEEEET!
This “common law” you keep speaking of is for countries with inadequate statute. Here, we have a Trade Marks Act, which grants exclusive rights to use and authorise use to trademark holders, and establishes a system of civil claims for infringements.
So, such a game is legally risky. OTOH, others right in GW’s legal backyard have got away with it. If you think you can too, then go ahead and run it.
This “common law” you keep speaking of is for countries with inadequate statute. Here, we have a Trade Marks Act, which grants exclusive rights to use and authorise use to trademark holders, and establishes a system of civil claims for infringements.
So, such a game is legally risky. OTOH, others right in GW’s legal backyard have got away with it. If you think you can too, then go ahead and run it.[/quote]
That would be why legal cases in this country can be thrown out in the privy council right… you know how we are not in the UK but they can still be thrown out … in ENGLANDS highest law authority… and how you know nothing about how common law works?
Yea … I get that. Keep living in your commonwealth dreamworld where legislation actually takes precident. Whats that? You can’t seem to find any local money that doesn’t have the british monarchs head on it… funny that.
A note for everyone: illegal is not unlawful. Corporate legislation is what makes you think you have to show a cop your ID. Unless they are actually arresting you OR you are being paid to drive a vehicle - you do not. - note: PAID TO DRIVE - not just driving.
< Would also make a good adeptus arbite?
New Zealand hasn’t used the Privy Council as a final court of appeal since 2004. We eliminated it. By statute.
Not here. See s5(4) Land Transport Act 1998 (also see s114 which allows a power to stop).
Lesson: if considering running a WH40K larp, do not take legal advice from someone who doesn’t even know what legal jurisdiction you are operating in.
How is it risky? Aside from the fact that I don’t think they’d sue fans for small-scale non-profit stuff (they sue massive companies like Blizzard, that’s where the money is and it doesn’t hurt their PR as much), isn’t what you’d be doing in running a 40K larp basically running their 40k tabletop RPG with some variations for live play? Especially if you buy a copy of that game? So what if you call it a 40k game - isn’t that what people playing the tabletop RPG call the games they run? Surely playing a published game can’t be infringement, given that it’s the purpose of the publication? Can you really see them winning this in a NZ court?
Our copyright law allows for fair dealing, which including some copying for “private study, research, criticism, review, and news reporting,” which is not an infringement of copyright. Different name, very similar concept.
However, I don’t think fair use is the key concept with the specific topic of a 40k larp. What I think matters here is that you’re basically using their product for something incredibly close to its intended purpose.
Would anyone mind if I split the legal discussions to a separate thread? It’s kinda using up the oxygen for discussion of whether people are keen to play a game like this.
I think moving the thread is a good idea, but speaking just for myself, there isn’t anything I have to say that I haven’t already said. if people want to run such a game and everything’s fine, then good for them; if it turns out that they get problems from the copyright holder, then it’s officially not my concern.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do, Jon.