Which again just goes to show how different people really are 
Thanks
V
I feel I want to put my own opinion in here, because it looks like Iām quite far down the conservative end of things:
ā¢A handshake - I would imagine that I would be fine with a friendly handshake.
ā¢A greeting hug - Only if youāre someone I know. Although if I donāt know you, but you ask if its ok first, Iāll probably say yes. But I tend to avoid hugs, as people seem to not like hugging me.
ā¢A friendly clap/slap on the shoulder - I would imagine thatās fine by me, so long as its not too hard. Indeed, usually when Iām trying to get someoneās attention (especially if I donāt know their name), or trying to either encourage or cheer someone up, I usually give them a light pat on the shoulder.
ā¢The same, but on the butt - Only if I know you and am attracted to you. Even then I wonāt be comfortable about it (Iād have to be dating you to be comfortable about it), but I wonāt object.
ā¢Sitting down beside someone and giving them a hug b/c they look sad - See above
ā¢A kiss on the hand - I really canāt see this happening to me, but as said by someone above, it probably wouldnāt be a problem if Iām given a chance to prevent it.
ā¢A kiss on the forehead/cheek - Probably the same rule as with a pat on the butt
ā¢A shove (not hard enough to make the target fall over) in the middle of an argument - A very light one would probably be alright, but Iām not really into actual pushing, I donāt like doing it myself. I did end up in a little bit of a shoving match with another person at a LARP relatively recently, but I didnāt really like doing it. I only even tried because a) I was pretty sure that specific player wouldnāt mind the light pushing. b) It seemed like the only plausible reaction for my character at the time. I would prefer that someone motions to push me (and maybe very gently makes contact) and describes what they are doing, so that I can react myself. And if someone has actually pre-arranged with me about acting out something, then Iāll probably be fairly happy with faking getting pushed hard (even to the point of pretending I was pushed over).
ā¢A much harder shove, such that they do fall over - Absolutely not, never ever. But see directly above.
Generally, my opinion is that I donāt like contact, except maybe when its just enough to actually touch the person for faking it. But as Iāve said, if someone has pre-arranged something with me, then Iām probably going to be fairly happy to act it out (and I canāt remember specifics, but I think this has happened in the past for me). And like seeminlgy most other people, the better I know someone, the more willing I am for them to push the boundaries.
Oh, and I do expect things to be a little rougher in open combat.
[quote=āCameronā]The same, but on the butt OK [color=#0000FF]Iād avoid this unless you know them and their partner well enough (or they are not around)[/color]
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[/quote]
Or they are not aroundā¦
Really Cameron? (My) Hannah will still put your teeth in a bucket if you touch me on the arse and she aint around 
But seriously I am not sure of you meant it, but being disrespectful like that and doing it only because the party who may take grievance is not around smacks a sneaky cowardly act. They not being there does not make it any less disrespectful, but perhaps even more so because it seems so sneaky.
Just saying
As to the others I personally have very few limits to what I will allow if the scene demands. When Zephyr first saw Blaze Kara took me aside and said I am going to slap you. I said ok. She did a fake slap, but in that instance I would have been ok with an actual slap because it had impact and was agreed upon.
As mentioned by Norm I tussled with Bryn at wolfgangs. I dont think we cleared it but we were of the same mind, it was dine in a relatively safe way (No obstacles with which to impale on), and was a pretty defining scene for our group. What I am saying here is that I have given permission to certain people because I trust them. To those I have not it doesnt mean I wont, just that I have not explicitly stated it yet. Pull me aside and we will go to it 
Where I draw the line (and it is not because I personally am uncomfortable with it) is intimate contact. I have a partner that doesnāt like that. I respect her wishes. I also assume the same level of those I play with. I guess I am mindful of others and donāt want to offend.
Lastkly when I say intimate contact I mean kissing, fondling, groping. I feel comfortable with giving a hug to a married woman in real life, so that isnt an issue. But I certainly wouldnt grope her or kiss her or pat her ass.
I donāt think it matters if they around or not, itās up to the involved partner to stop the contact if they think itās crossing the line. If a guy is being groped by some girl, and he is all happy with it, I donāt think itās the girl that his girlfriend should get mad at 
Because you are a guy? Lol. I kissed Patrickās hand in Midsummer Eve, I hope he was ok with it 
Speaking of Midsummer Eve, there was a GMās instruction of āno physical contactā, despite that a number of people grabbed my chin or cheek, and I was fine with it because those people are trusted friends. I know in some larps there is excessive amount of physical contact between people who are rather close. I would imagine itās fine, e.g. Muppet holding Nikki tight in St Wolfgang, when she was a demon trying to break free, it looked like a serious struggle, so I thought for a second "Is it ok that he holds her like that? Ah, right, itās her boyfriend ".
Me too! But there will always be someone who would think that I need a ārelaxing massageā on the neck and just do it, and then I have to explain why I so freak out and yell at them. No matter how stiff my neck may be, itās nobodyās bloody business 
But thatās an OOC issue, nothing to do with larp.
I donāt think that this is, I like it. Look at the good discussion itās spawned.
Iām going to simply go with jumping on the āMutual Agreement is Keyā bandwagon.
I had a friend at Uni lean over as I was reading this earlier, and he asked my opinion, so thatās the one I gave him. I also used a few folks I know personally as examples of people I am well aware I could āget awayā with some serious physical contact, the roughousing violent sort. Still, even with those folks, Iām quite cautious, and it never hurts to drop into a very quick OOC whisper if youāre unsure. The best roleplay moments come though when you know the person, and can just go for it.
Still, lots come from the imagination, after all, and a slap/hit of the air towards a character in some Larps followed by a simple explanation of what just happened is totally fine. Example, my character storms up to another, played by Patrick, and āslaps him hard across the faceā, by me pulling my hand back, explaining quickly that I was āslapping him hardā, and then pretending to backhand him. He acts as though heās been struck, and follows with a similar action, one I was expecting, again, not actually making contact. The intent was still very clear to all players in the area though, as I got āflung to the groundā, then āhoisted up by the elbowā, and the arguement progressed.
The other example I wanted to mention was to do with the simple handshake, and how much can be told through it. Iām English, I handshake to greet people often. Iām fine with it. Whatās interesting is when you have the subtle conflict in the original shake. One that is short, perhaps. One that lasts far longer than it needs to. One that has a participant asserting dominance by twisting so their hand is on top. One that becomes a strength grip check. These can be done either way, I find the best way is to quietly mention how youāre handshaking. While this is a carry-over from tabletop RP, itās good because you can still get the subtext without the uncomfortable physical contact with who youāre handshaking. However, with certain members of the LARP community, Iāll gladly go into a strength grip challenge, for real (though Gaffy always goes easy on me, because he could crush bone ), or Iāll hold on that extra second, or otherwise.
Guess the point Iām making is that once you get the mutual agreement, and you make friends in the community, you can have some serious fun, BUT, at the same time, you can still have a great time without actually needing to resort to the actual physical contact.
Some people have mentioned loss of immersion from using an aside to get permission etc. Theres argument here for sure. But beyond all else, immersion happens in your mind. When we larp, we compartmentalise (well I do). We play our character sure but at the same time we are also ourselves. I would be utterly suprised if our character became more dominant than our real selves (but I am sure some can get there).
People process interaction first as themselves and then as their character. Its like reading a good book, we know weāre reading a book but at the same time our brains which are incredibly flexible are painting the story in our minds. LARP is not so dissimilar.
My advice is donāt get hung up over the tiny immersion breaks because the pay off for having them is worth while. For 10 or 30 seconds of fairly subtle OOC chat we can improve the in character value of a scene significantly. AND even more amazing is that our brains will paint over that little aside like it didnāt even happen because it was part of painting the scene.
Brains, indeed, are rather amazing.
Sorry, Sorryā¦that last bit was joking. I probably should have put a 
in there. This is one of those times sarcasm is lost across the net. I tend not to play characters that would do this anywayā¦I canāt realy see Sir Carpenter or Cornelius giving anyone a swift pat on the backside .
Allow me to ammend.
I also agree with jared about small OOC breaks to clarify thingsā¦in the future when your recounting the scene no one ever says āhe got angry and checked if it was ok to throw me against the wall and then did itā¦it was awsomeā it will mearly be āmy character got pinned to the wallā¦it was awsomeā youāll forget the little breaks and concentrate on what was important about the story or scene.
On a similar note: A day or so later do you remember the ad breaks or what happens in a TV program?
[quote=āJaredā]Some people have mentioned loss of immersion from using an aside to get permission etc.
(snip)
My advice is donāt get hung up over the tiny immersion breaks because the pay off for having them is worth while. For 10 or 30 seconds of fairly subtle OOC chat we can improve the in character value of a scene significantly. AND even more amazing is that our brains will paint over that little aside like it didnāt even happen because it was part of painting the scene.[/quote]
I agree with Jared. I would find it more immersion breaking if someone encroached on my personal space really badly without permission because the discomfort from that tends to linger (for me anyway, though I think other people are quite protective of their personal space will feel the same way) I would much rather take the thirty seconds of hushed discussion over spending three hours feeling uncomfortable and not sure how to express it to Person X that I really didnāt like what they did and could they not it again. I agree with whoever said, further up this thread, that you also need to watch reaction of the person youāre dealing with because they might feel pressured to agreeing for the sake of immersion or another personās game.
I also think that while physical contact can really add to the game if everyone involved trusts each other, there are a lot of non-contact ways to express similar things. As an example of the former, the campaign āNightmare Circleā was pretty much a full contact larp - but it consisted of about 20-25 people, all of whom knew each other well and regularly larped together, and it was understood coming into the game that it was full-contact. You canāt do something like that at Teonn because there are so many new people and so many people you donāt know well. As an example of successful non-contact ways to express things, Brynās character at Teonn managed to be a prize-winning slap-worthy sleaze without laying a hand on anyone.
ā¦to add I only felt comfortable doing that with people I knew reasonably well, or at least well enough that (I hoped) they wouldnāt feel uncomfortable out of character.
For me, better safe than sorry, I come from the UK where you wouldnāt physically touch anyone you didnāt know at an event (weapons excluded). At the final St. Wolfgangs game Vanya and I ended up pushing and physically wrestling with each other, regardless of consent had that have happened at one of the bigger fest games in the UK weād probably have been warned given a warning, or may even have been sent off site.
So for me take real life as a guide. Iād shake someoneās hand that I didnāt know, but I wouldnāt slap them on the back or give them a hug. When you get to know people better, youāll know (or discuss) whatās appropriate. In the same way I also wouldnāt discuss ārisqueā or āinappropriateā topics with people I didnāt know either.
Better safe than sorry.
A good example of this is when I was playing in Donnaās Betrothals & Betrayals Larp; I wanted to physically push someone else in a dangerous way in character, so I took a few seconds to discuss with him what I wanted to do and if that was alright with him. He said yes, and I mimed pushing him while he faked being pushed, which is a lot safer than actually pushing someone forcefully. As Jared said, we ignored the fact that it was staged and played as if it had happened as discussed.
My general rule of thumb is not to do anything I wouldnāt want my wife to see on youtubeā¦ 
Hi All it has been a longtime since I poked my head in and someone asked my veiw on the subject.
I come at this a different way from having separate ( theatreform) larp stuff and combat ( martial arts) training.
So I have a veiw on this ,if I could do it IRL without feeling stink then I am ok to do it in the game
A handshake - sure even weird things like clasping a forearm in a manly warrior way
A greeting hug - sure I do this to most people
A friendly clap/slap on the shoulder - sure as above.
The same, but on the butt - nope unless its my girl
Sitting down beside someone and giving them a hug b/c they look sad - I do it in real life so I feel ok with it
A kiss on the hand - I usually fake it unless it is some one I know well
A kiss on the forehead/cheek - ditto
A shove (not hard enough to make the target fall over) in the middle of an argument- only someone who I know well and then only if i know they see it coming
A much harder shove, such that they do fall over - pre planned only
this is all different if I know the person involved or i donāt know their Real life name. This is important for me like if it is a good friend then I could probably do all of the above, if it is a new person to be then above a handshake I am basically not going to do any of the above. it is just me probably but if I would be weirded out by a stranger touching me in a larp , then It would be the same for them in my head.
Just for your information:
A kiss on the hand - Usually is never a kiss on the hand it is more likly to be a kiss on a ring (if a kiss is given at all) or a gentle touch of the tip of your nose onto the back of the hand so that it feels like a kiss but you have the respect to not presume you may kiss what is potentially another mans woman - additionally touching the back of their hand to your forhead is also a sign of respect.
A kiss on the forehead/cheek - Forehead is a new one on me - probably some riff raff peasent nonsence. Kiss on the cheak however (while vaguly french and thus totally cheese eating and surrender monkey worthy) is infact a brush of your cheak against theirs with a kissing nose made away from the ear.
/informercial
Just as an added aside - depending on the larp - touching a female anywhere when you are not family or formerly courting can be considered a henous act and you may be called upon to duel (often to the death) for a slight against the maidens honnor.
This is especially (and even more zealously adhired to) in high fantasy medievel knock off books so donāt expect any leway in a larp.
[quote=āViperionā]
In reality, and not in some theoretical, paranoid, hair-trigger land, what are the general guidelines for physical contact? I am talking - and I would hope this is obvious - solely about in-character interactions. [/quote]
Itās not just about the litiginous nature of the US, itās about respecting peoples space, and their right to not have to refuse you making them uncomfortable.
Which I guess means like everyone else, mutual agreement is the key. But I donāt really like the -tone- of how you posted this, which implied there was something wrong with caution being a watchword. {color=blue] [/color]
[quote][ul][li]A handshake [color=blue] Iām fine with these.[/color][/li]
[li]A greeting hug [color=blue] Iām fairly huggy, so Iām fine with that.[/color][/li]
[li]A friendly clap/slap on the shoulder [color=blue] Fine[/color][/li]
[li]The same, but on the butt [color=blue] Doubtful, and Iām not really used to anyone outside of the 50s thinking its appropriate contact unless you know someone incredibly well.[/color][/li]
[li]Sitting down beside someone and giving them a hug b/c they look sad [color=blue] It depends on if iāve gone into defensive donāt touch me mode.[/color][/li]
[li]A kiss on the hand [color=blue] Sure.[/color][/li]
[li]A kiss on the forehead/cheek [color=blue] Thatād be weird from someone I wasnāt close to.[/color][/li]
[li]A shove (not hard enough to make the target fall over) in the middle of an argument [color=blue] I probably wouldnāt be comfortable with this.[/color][/li]
[li]A much harder shove, such that they do fall over [color=blue]I doubt Iād agree to this when asked, unless I knew you incredibly well. [/color][/li][/ul][/quote]
I guess Iām not so happy with most of these things, at least as far as giving blanket permission is concerned.
My problem is, I have times when I -really- want my personal space. I have others where my personal space is non existent. But Iām pretty much unwilling to give blanket permission, incase someone gets me actually riled up.
Of course thereās nothing wrong with being cautious but if I can take an example of the thing Iām talking about; Mindās Eye Theatre (new world of darkness), page 18 under āThe Only Rules That Matterā:[quote][size=150]#2 - No Touching[/size]
Never actually make physical contact with other players, no matter how careful you are or how innocent you believe the gesture is. This goes for so-called āsocial touchesā such as hugs or back rubs as much, if not more than, ācombat touchesā such as punches or kicks. Accidents happen, intentions are misinterpreted and someone could get hurt. Rely on the rules to cover the physical logistics of your game.[/quote](emphasis added by me).
This seems to state in pretty clear language that even shaking hands and hello hugs are to be avoided. So far in this thread everyone without exception has said handshakes are OK (some going so far as to say āof course!ā) and 75%* have said greeting hugs or claps on the shoulder are fine too. This is what I meant when I said āin realityā because itās obvious to me that the extreme hard-line taken in book simply doesnāt reflect what is acceptable in real life.
From that point on though it certainly does depend on the player; Iāve had several players (both in this thread and in private conversations) say āpretty much anything is fine as long as I know itās comingā and Iāve also had several saying āthis, this, and this are not okā with a great range in between where everyone else falls.
Which I guess goes to show people really are beautiful unique flowers
Iād just like to make clear again though; Iām certainly not putting this out there with an agenda of āI think itās ok for you to push meā - which I do - ātherefore itās ok for me to push youā. I have no hidden agenda here, I honestly was curious about what people consider āalways OKā, ānever OKā and āOK only with permissionā. And the answer to all those is āit depends on who it isā 
Thanks again for the reply
Viperion
*the number 75 is pulled out of myā¦ well you get the idea. But itāll be close to the right number. I think
I canāt add much, but I do feel that sometimes you might get swept away with whats happening and do something accidental. In my first combat larp, which was at Chimera last year, I grabed Porl from behind in a bearhug kinda way, now that was purely to āsubdueā him as he was a bad bad npc. Then I got a quick flash in the void that is my brain and realised Iād grabbed someone, potentially in a bad way, I let got quickly and appologised, along with raising my hands, he then handed me a prop note and we continued onā¦
I did feel a bit bad, cause I kind of remembered reading something, somewhere about not touching players unless permission was given. But it was heat of the battle and I just did what seemed natural to me as a person.
Iāve had plenty of opportunities to act out being punched or pushed around. My very first larp i had an encounter with muppets character and in game, acted him punching me out. His character wanted to punch my character and we discussed it in character, so not really on the same level as the topic, but it sure was some of the best interaction iāve had in a larp.
Only saw this thread recently, but thought it was mighty interesting
Iām pretty much with everyone else on this topic, permission is key. Sometimes knowing a person very well can substitute express permission.
As a general rule, Iām pretty much okay with most kinds of contact with a few disclaimers:
-No actual intimacy, kissing on the mouth and the like. Iāve a non-LARPy girlfriend who Iām all about and that would really offend her. I would note though that she was totally fine when I had to kiss a guy for a Web TV show, so double standards there I supposeā¦
-Donāt be creepy about it. No one likes being groped.
-Iām all good with any kind of physicality if I know you quite well. I would stress that pushing me when you donāt know me and youāve not had a chat to me first is a very bad idea. Iāll take that personally and hold you, not your character, responsible. I know that Iāve pushed people on occasion without asking them during LARPs (people I know) and I hope they donāt take offence (they probably donāt cause their awesome ) but I still feel a little bad about it. So itās always good to have an OOC chat if you can.
-Iād easily forgive people if they grabbed me in combat, it can get pretty heated and mistakes do happen