Throwing knives

So … as far as I’m aware, standard technique here is:

1: Cut camp-mat foam to shape
2: Paint

However, it would seem to me these would not be very practical for accurate throwing. So here’s a list of questions …

[ul]
[li]Is it usual to use multiple layers?[/li]
[li]How are they stuck together? A lightweight non-rigid adhesive? Duct-tape?[/li]
[li]How could weight be safely added (for to cause better throwing behaviour)? Wrapping with Duct-tape before painting? Incorporating a spell-packet into the middle of the ‘knife’? Dipping in latex?[/li][/ul]

I guess what I’m envisioning is using a couple of layers of soft foam to sandwich around a standard-issue spell packet, thus creating something that looks like a knife, throws somewhat more predictably, and is no more dangerous than throwing spell packets at people.

Gear gurus … does this sound safe/practical/reasonable?

I’ve been thinking of making some throwing knives, and have many of the same questions. Theoretically, a weight in the middle should be safe, provided its relatively light (so its not like being hit by a stone), not sharp, properly protected etc. Something like a couple of old coins would seem ideal. But would people be comfortable with them?

One way I have found to give foam a little bit more mass and toughness is to glue a layer of canvas between two layers of foam. It makes the foam pretty much un-rippable and also slightly heavier.

I’m not sure if it would add enough mass to make a knife throw well.

3 - 4 layers of camp mat (I made little bricks to test how many layers it took have the right amount of weight to fly properly), Aidos used to glue, wrapped in silver duct tape. Thats how I made the last ones I did.

I suggest making it into a brick then carving it knife shaped.

Just tried making some of these: two layers of camp-mat with various internal layers (nothing, fabric and leather). Leather adds the most mass and so gives the best throwing performance. But its still only 10g for a 9" knife. Latex might add a tiny bit extra, but not much.

One thing that occurs to me is that wrapping the hilt in leather will significantly up the mass, but also throw off the balance. But that could perhaps be compensated for in the design.

Latex may add more weight than you think, especially if you really layer it on.

In all honnesty - do not worry about the balance. The weapons do not have to go very far - to be honnest anything over 5 meters with a throwing knife in a larp is not really safe. Providing it can travel that far with a resonably gentle wrist flick then you are fine.

Latex will definatly help to weight it as well as help stop it from scooping up thorns and the like from the ground (which would then end up in somone once they have been hit by the dagger :stuck_out_tongue: )

Canvas between layers of foam is also a great way to weight a weapon but try to make sure that the canvas doesn’t go to the edge of the foam as once glued it can become quite hard - you don’t want to bosh somone on the nose with rock hard canvas :wink:

There seems to be a general consensus that throwing daggers are inherently dangerous, and I just can’t square it with the other risks in the game.

e.g. I’ve been hit pretty hard by swords, and the forces involved are typically way more than you get from a throwing dagger.

Getting hit by an axe or a hammer general means even more force (because the the business end of this kind of weapon is swung in an arc an is on the end of a lever)

Then there’s arrows, which not only have a greater mass than a larpsafe throwing dagger, but concentrates the force in a specific direction i.e. through the target.

Contrast the above with a larpsafe throughing dagger:

  • They don’t weigh that much (less overall force involved on impact)
  • They tumble and bounce on impact, meaning the force is dispersed

To me, the way to make throwing daggers safe is to ensure they can be thrown accurately. This means you can control the flight, and reduce the risk of the dagger changing direction midflight. To do this typically requires a more rigid core and a reasonable weight, factors that are seen as risky in other comments on this thread, but, for reasons explained above, I think are less risky.

Mike makes some valid arguments, heres a few more.

I believe the whole throwing daggers are unsafe idea has come from a range of things such as being poorly made. They are also very unpredictable in flight.

I made throwing daggers for Hannah’s son (forgets name) for Teonn. They were 2 layers of campmat but I glued in 3 ten cent coins near the tip of the blade. Not on top of each other but in a line. It helped but not a lot. I think 5m was the very top range if thrown in an arc and flew in a mostly straight line if you flicked them with a side arm action. I can tell you with some certainty that they are as safe if not more safe than a spell packet as they are both squishy AND very light.
I would even be happy with them hitting my head. They are butt ugly but like any larp weapon, safety comes from design AND sensible usage.

There seems to be a general consensus that throwing daggers are inherently dangerous, and I just can’t square it with the other risks in the game.

e.g. I’ve been hit pretty hard by swords, and the forces involved are typically way more than you get from a throwing dagger.

Getting hit by an axe or a hammer general means even more force (because the the business end of this kind of weapon is swung in an arc an is on the end of a lever)

Then there’s arrows, which not only have a greater mass than a larpsafe throwing dagger, but concentrates the force in a specific direction i.e. through the target.

Contrast the above with a larpsafe throughing dagger:

  • They don’t weigh that much (less overall force involved on impact)
  • They tumble and bounce on impact, meaning the force is dispersed

To me, the way to make throwing daggers safe is to ensure they can be thrown accurately. This means you can control the flight, and reduce the risk of the dagger changing direction midflight. To do this typically requires a more rigid core and a reasonable weight, factors that are seen as risky in other comments on this thread, but, for reasons explained above, I think are less risky.[/quote]
I think there was a misscommunication.

I ment that most larp safe throwing daggers traveling futher than 5 meters start to lose accuracy and as such and vear off and hit other targets such as friends.

Balance is an issue if it lets me hit what I’m aiming at. But it doesn’t need to be perfect.

Still, I sense a line of scientific inquiry here: latex one to see how much extra mass it adds, wrap the hilt to work that out, and then start sticking washers to the outside for balance until its sorta righ. Mark the spots, then the next batch I make get done properly, with the washers inside, and hopefully fly sorta straight.

[quote=“Xcerus”]I think there was a misscommunication.

I ment that most larp safe throwing daggers traveling futher than 5 meters start to lose accuracy and as such and vear off and hit other targets such as friends.[/quote]
I see what you mean now. I’d rather have throwing daggers with cores. They flight straighter, which reduces the risk of accidentally hitting someone other than the target. I’m not really sure why everyone says you can’t have cores, the risk don’t stack up IMO. Sure, you might get hit in the face with a dagger, but the fore is very small compared to getting hit by a sword or other weapon (which, due to the number in use, is much more likely to happen).

If we were adding cores to throwing daggers I’d suggest something like a glue-stick or equally rubbery rather than a solid core. And keep them small to ensure they don’t end up with too much mass, possibly with more than 2 layers and making sure the ends are nice and rounded.

I’m not sure we should make them something durable enough to be used as a proper melee weapon however. Its the possiblity of broken weapons with exposed hard cores that worry me. Hannah’s son used the ones like daggers (to stab undead chewing on SHard no less) but there was no way they could be used for parrying etc. And if they broke, there was no way they could harm anyone.

My only real concern with throwing daggers is getting one in the eye.

I expect it would sting, but unlikely to cause damage.

But for that reason, there shouldn’t be any sharp points on such a dagger that could get in someones eye.

ie. A point that’s acceptable on a sword or hand held dagger would not be acceptable on a throwing dagger.

I note that the daggers Jared made for Charles have very rounded tips. Presumably for exactly this reason.

[quote=“joker”]My only real concern with throwing daggers is getting one in the eye.

I expect it would sting, but unlikely to cause damage.

But for that reason, there shouldn’t be any sharp points on such a dagger that could get in someones eye.

ie. A point that’s acceptable on a sword or hand held dagger would not be acceptable on a throwing dagger.

I note that the daggers Jared made for Charles have very rounded tips. Presumably for exactly this reason.[/quote]

Exactly the reason. If I were to make them again I would make them from more layers and give them a diamond-like cross section and make them a bit prettier. A small section of weighting (i’d use a small section of glu-stick) would be enough to drastically improve the flight pattern.

[quote=“joker”]My only real concern with throwing daggers is getting one in the eye.

I expect it would sting, but unlikely to cause damage.

But for that reason, there shouldn’t be any sharp points on such a dagger that could get in someones eye.

ie. A point that’s acceptable on a sword or hand held dagger would not be acceptable on a throwing dagger.[/quote]

So, we want a “point” about the size of a finger or so?

I would have said two fingers. Maybe three. For instance if you hold up your hand and hold the three middle fingers together, I would have said that should be the minimum curve on it…

I’m totally just talking off the top of my head, but it seems a reasonable rule of thumb. Er, finger…

Something.

Given that I’m going for a 1.5" blade width, that might be difficult.

(Why so small? Becuse throwing knives are meant to be. BTW, a packet of 3g washers costs $2; you need one in the blade to offset any leather wrapping on the hilt, and the other two in the middle . This gives a total mass of ~20g, which is enough to give a fairly controlled throw at the sorts of ranges we’re after).

You’re right. The average mass of my cores (2 layers of foam, with 2 washers in there as weights) was 12g. Latex ups that to 17g. And the hilt wrap should make it a nice, even 20g - which is right where I want it to be.

The finished product:

The leather hilt is heavier than I thought - they weigh in at 25g. Which means they are nice and accurate.