Quick note on the spells that you mentioned earlier. We run about 200 basic spells in our sytem. With modifications and things that is about 300 spells in use. We don’t have much problem with player confusion of spell effects. It depends how you write the system.
Systems. Most systems on the net are based on NERO or various paper roleplays. The NERO system is a first generation Live Role Play system. Systems like Mordavia follow the lead of NERO and are also first generation. Skirmish, like Amtgard, are an even more primative form of a first generation system. Games like Legends of Klayv based on paper role play are just shite and almost impossible to play. There are a couple examples of this in Auckland at the moment. For a system, just find a good 2nd or 4th generation LRP system and cut it down to what you want. The system is mearly the mechanics that allows a good Live Role Player to interact in their campaign.
I’ve never heard of generations of live-combat larp system. Doesn’t sound a likely theory to me.
If there is any similarity I imagine it’s due to parallel evolution. We’ve never been influenced much by US systems, though UK ones have had some influence.
Examples, preferably ones that are available to download?
Zeroth generation rules are games like wide games or live war games. While fun they are not usually considered role play.
Games like NERO and Amtguard are first generation games. They tend to be based on systems developed from Basic D&D. Because many systems are ultimately based on similar source material , they do follow a parallel eveolution and end up here. Our first system was a first generation system.
Systems like Gateway became a second generation system. Our thrird edition rules were 2nd generation.
Then came the concept of third generation where the concept was to play in normal envirnoment and therefore you had to use more discreet means. The Masquerade is ‘The’ third edition system.
Fourth edition rules are trying to incorporate both second generation and third generation rules into a single system. This allows some players to use swords and some to use other resolution systems. Very hard concept. We are still play testing this.
We expect fifth generation rules will have use of electronics to help everyting along. We are waiting to see anybody else comes up with a generation in the mean time.
On rereading the rules I would call Mordavia 1st genetaion with one or two elements of 2cnd generation.
Anyway, the system is less important in this case. The important thing is the setting and the people having to run it.
First define the setting, which you guys look like you are doing well.
Find, make, or modify a system.
Create the paperwork the backstory of the world.
Then Go for it.
World of Darkness using a variation on the modern world as the setting is not a linear “advancement” on fantasy games that require more suspension of disbelief. It’s just a slightly different paradigm. Further down that road are Alternate Reality Games such as The Beast (the A.I. game), which while not technically a larp (because you don’t play characters) involves techniques that merge the real world with a fantasy world that could be seen as a further development of the WoD paradigm.
As for those live-combat fantasy generations… meh. The only really interesting developments I’ve seen are in the Nordic countries which are doing away with rules to get a more immersive experience, and in the UK with player-led events like Maelstrom which are creating game simulations of fantasy societies.
Do you mean the Gateway rules that AMERICA used to use for live combat fantasy? No offense if you were involved in them, but they were pretty average. I’d pit the Mordavia rules against them for playability any day. I mean, people had hit point totals of twenty or more and were calling damage amounts of five or more (can’t remember exact numbers). Where I come from, that’s old school stuff. I don’t believe big numbers work well in larp, one of the main reasons I find NERO so naff.
A generation of rules does not mean they are good or bad. Rather they deal with the mechanics of the system.
To me the term fantasy means a world with non-human races. It implies the exsistance of fanatstical creatures and magic. As rule for a dark fantasy system I would expect some non-human races (probably Drow) and a magic system plus possibly a good clerical system with a nice selection of Gods for the clerics to play. If these are not in a system such as this, one might as well play historical recreation. The underlying system is less important than these elements.
When you talk about generations of technology it implies increases in quality. I assumed you meant the same thing about larp rules. But then you threw in World of Darkness… I assumed you were talking about chronological developments in larp rule culture.
Now I just don’t know, colour me confused.
Fantasy means whatever the person using it means. I mean, it’s such a used-and-abused word.
If this world has magic in it, then I’d say it’s hard to argue it’s not fantasy. And really, who cares what words are used to describe it? The name is not the thing, and pigeon-holing is never a road to creativity.
Talk to Wittgenstein, that is his topic of interest.
True, fantasy is a much used word, but using ‘fantasy’ such as in ‘fantasy novel’ gives one a genre feel. One could call world war 2 fiction fantasy, but to me a dark fantasy campaign should have the nonhumans and the magic otherwise I’d be playing with SCA and the Norsemen.
So if it has magic but not non-humans, and is based in a non-Earth setting, it’s not fantasy?
When you say “should” what do you mean? Do you mean you’d prefer that it does have magic and nonhumans, or that it shouldn’t call itself fantasy if it doesn’t?
Are the Dragon Riders of Pern fantasy? Nice philosophical point.
As to the other…
One of the problem with SCA and the Norse groups is that they don’t have magic in their systems. To be historically accuarate in must be included. If it is not in a fantasy LRP then it is just historical reanactment Lite. Nothing wrong with that, but if one calls something after a reasonably well defined genre one would reasonably expect elements of that genre to be included
Good evening, welcome to the Train Ride to Semantic Argument Nowhereland.
We apologise for this derailment of the Discussion of Tigger and Scotty’s New Larp train you were expecting, but assure you that train will also run… sometime, possibly on this very same track at the same time.
Or possibly this train will find it’s way to a new track, where it will quietly rust in peace.
Edit: Craig here. I’ve split the thread, was thinking the same thing as Ryan there!
But seriously, it’s my opinion that having any one of the elements of the fantasy genre make something fantasy.
If it’s got elves but no magic, it’s fantasy.
Unless it’s set in space, in which case it’s space fantasy.
If it’s got magic but no elves, its fantasy.
Unless it’s set in space and the magic is explained as some sort of invisible symbiotic alien lifeform, in which case it’s Star Wars. Which also happens to have non-humans, but they are present as part of the Science Fiction genre not the fantasy one.
Confused?
Genre is bust, and genre-bending is the norm. People should be able to create whatever thing they want, and if it’s fantasy to them then they can call it fantasy. If that creates the wrong expectations then that’s a marketing issue, but marketing doesn’t dictate what anyone should call things.
I’d be keen to hear what generation Nibelungen falls into.
Nibelungen is a ray-gun-totin’ retro sci fi, potentially epic, potentially mystical, super-player-driven live game. It has non-human characters and “science fantasy” technology that you could call magjick.
If I understand correctly, Nibelungen has seemlessly merged zeroth generation games which are of childish simplicity with third generation games which make use of the modern world.
As for genre, it’s clearly not fantasy because it doesn’t have any elves. So by default that makes it historical reinactment.
Since Skirmish is onto v2.x of its rules, does that make it 2nd Generation ?
On a more technical note, Star Wars is Science Fantasy. It would be SciFi, if it wasn’t for all the bullshit physics etc. So it must be one of those genrebending forms.
A Zeroth Generation Game is a game where there are character interaction rules but no real roleplay charactrer/avatars. For example Paintball, Cowboys and indians/Cops and Robbers/Doctors and Nurses.
The difference between a first genration and a second generation game is essentially in the character generation system. This distinction came from a time when there was really only one type of LRP.
In a First Generation game the character is essentially defined by the class that they buy, a la D&D and Nero. In Second Generation games the characters are primarily defined by their skill sets, a la Palladium and Gateway.
The Third Generation game has nothing to do with with what era the game is set in. It uses a fundamentally different conflict resolution system such as Masquerade or Long Live the King. The original 3G game was created to be played in New York nightclubs. There a boffer weapon system was not useful.
We have defined a Fourth Generation game as a game that combines the systems of a 1G or 2G game with a 3G game. This is actually a lot more difficult than it sounds.
To the Mordavia players, if I have offended you, sorry.
Let us define things. Mordavia is a simple, first generation set of rules. This is a very good thing. I assume the first generation rules and simple skill set were chosen to enhance the political aspects of play. The combat system is simple and straight forward which aids in giving a more realistic combat and less time spent on rule lawyers. The magic system is small, but adequate to create a fantasy environment. The system is therefore that most important of things for an LRP system, it is playable.
The most complex system I have seen has the body divided into 13 seperate hit area, each of which had seperate hit point and armour point totals. And each weapon did varying amounts of damage. The player only had to keep track of 26 hit point totals at one time. Then the combat system got really complex. The magic system was just as bad. I have no idea of how they ever finished a module. If you want to see a similar type of system look at the “Legends of the Klayv” at nightmares.demon.co.uk/lkweb … system.htm
Good luck and good adventuring and HAppy Soltice/Christmas/Hanaka/(insert religous holiday here)
I don’t think assigning numbers to different approaches to larp is good nomenclature. Numbers imply a progression, but the only progression in this case is chronological - if that. I think names for trends are more useful.
I’d call this “playing pretend”, although it’s interesting how you group paintball in there. That has some merit, and it might require a different name.
I can see why you’d draw this difference. But I’d just call it “with character classes” or “class-based” and “without character classes” or “skill-based”.
Then again, I don’t think the presence of classes is as defining an attribute in larp as it is in tabletop. A huge number of other mechanical considerations are just as important in a larp system.
This already has a very well established name: abstract resolution mechanics.
[quote=“Alista”]To the Mordavia players, if I have offended you, sorry.
Let us define things. Mordavia is a simple, first generation set of rules. [/quote]
Not at all offended, but this doesn’t gel with what you said before. Mordavia is indeed designed to be simple, but it doesn’t use classes. It doesn’t strictly use skills either. Rather it merges all possible advantagous attributes a character has into a set of independant “advantages”. Advantages are highly granular like classes, but the resemblence ends there. They’re not classes.
The Mordavia system was designed to draw attention away from resource hoarding and advancement and towards social play. We wanted to take players away from a “kill and loot” mentality and towards a “what is my motivation and who can help me?” mentality. Also, we wanted the rules to detract as little as possible from feeling immersed in your character. The system is deliberately simple, to minimise how much time you spend thinking about rules during play.
