Mordavia - The Franchise or Sale - Agenda Proposal

nzLARPS
#41

How odd, we almost had a good motion designed that would probably have passed.

The committee meets once a month and we’ve already done this month, so I think everyone was just making sure we got the best agreement possible out of this.

I hope everybody knows - the committee will act upon any issue members or non-members bring forward.

To explain the obscure “H word” remark, I once idly reminded Scott that leadership revolving around the wishes of a single person hasn’t succeeded in the past by saying “Hitler tried that too” on IM. It was a bit un-called for but I was (of course) describing Scott’s actions, not Scott himself. Seems to have come off another way. Anyway that was November 2005.

For reference though, I don’t mind if anyone calls me a “prat,” that’s fine.

Scott, I don’t think your argument suffered from who you were up against, I think it suffered from being uncooperative. We’ve given alternative channels to achieve what you want but you haven’t taken us up on them. We clearly didn’t agree with the specific “20%” approach to funding so that was a bit of a dead horse. Further, we don’t have any money from selling the project yet, just a distant thought that maybe we could think about doing so. So we were worried about the 20% idea 'cos it would mean you probably wouldn’t get any money.

Come back and promise not to flip out again because we’re having trouble finding larps that want our money and support. :wink:

#42

You’re a great big prat, Craig.

Also, a prawn.

(HURF DURF PERSONAL ATTACKS)

#43

Its your choice to go if you want Scott, nobody is asking to leave. If anything I’ve seen a lot of support in quite a few posts and the rest are just trying to work out where you’re coming from and get some specifics.

Try to be a bit more reasonable and stop shooting yourself in the foot with the little rants, threats and name calling and we’ll all get on a lot better.

TBH I think its all a bit moot anyway as, while packaging Mordavia is a nice idea, theres just too much work involved for too little payoff and too many potential problems with IP issues (Your claim and Sierra’s claim)

#44

Laugh away I’m pretty much like you said flogging a dead horse, shite doesn’t flow up hill.

Exquires comment about LARPs not wanting money, while sarcastic is sweet by me, I’m definately not wanting that money these things are better funded from my own pocket where I no longer have to go head to head with people’s that cause more annoyance than needed.

There is no chance I would take up a loan from the Society, mostly because of my principal of not getting myself into debt to anyone, so thus would not of worked, and nor would of signing away my LARP upon my retirement.

The reality of the situation is that you will find another organiser for Christchurch eventually even if much further in the future, but in the mean time you’ve got only one option and he’s not liking your sales pitch or sales team, and has no objection from voicing that.

Never fear, I am not worried, the way I saw the sale was strong enough to fight for it, even if it did end up the sale being worth diddly stuff all, again it is all based on Principal not profit, it has been ran and mistreated beyond what I had hoped for the project which I can only put straight starting from fresh in a LARP free city, I’ve learnt a very valuable lesson here and will be Copy righting my new systems as they become public, further more will not be taking on a Co-Organiser.

If the motion is to go ahead, then I wish those funds donated to Saga, it seems the only way of being 100% clear that I am not out to profit from this.

Also I wish to make crystal clear and reinforce my statement earlier, there is no way even upon a cold day in the underworld that I will loan my kit to NZLARPS, I do not believe it to be 100% democratic without internal influence from set members.

#45

That’s not how NZLARPS funding works. If your project makes a loss, the society absorbs the loss. There is no personal risk to the organiser, no interest… it’s not really a loan, it’s funding.

That’s not what I suggested - I was only suggesting that the gear specifically funded by NZLARPS could eventually revert to the society. Not your larp, not any other gear you’ve made with your own funding, not anything else at all.

While I realise you’re really fed up with me, could you answer one thing more: if the society voted to gift you the Mordavia website and some gear that might be useful like scrolls, would you want it and would you use it to run Mordavia larps? That’s the direction I’m leaning in, but as all things it’ll have to go to the vote.

#46

[quote]I do not believe it to be 100% democratic without internal influence from set members.
[/quote]
As someone who has a paid card-carrying membership to NZLARPS I can state unequivocally that the Society is a democratic entity. Earlier this year we held elections and I ran for the post of Community Officer because I had a different take on where this important role should have headed. I presented my views to a meeting of a majority of Society members who then voted on who they believed was the person best suited to this job. Sadly I was not elected, however numerous people from the new committee encouraged me to attend meetings and participate in the Society.

The Society is reliant on the input of all members to be successful and therefore everyone is entitled to have a say in Society matters. Once a year a committee is democratically elected by Society members and we as members entrust these people to carry out the Society’s aim of supporting LARP. Incidentally I think the committee for this year is fantastic as was the first committee last year.

If you are concerned with the runnings, aims and processes of the Society then a way of further voicing those concerns would be to join up as a member and when elections roll around next year in September, run for a position. I would welcome developments by the Society so the rest of New Zealand has some representation in the Society (not just Auckland) and Christchurch is a great starting point. Change most often comes from within.

All opinions are valid, regardless or not of whether I or anyone else agree with them, we only ask they remain respectful of different views. If anyone on Diatribe or in the Society feels they have problems with having their opinions heard, discussed and considered, then we have a major problem. Fortunately I belive this is far from the case.

#47

[quote=“Malu”][quote]I do not believe it to be 100% democratic without internal influence from set members.
[/quote]
As someone who has a paid card-carrying membership to NZLARPS I can state unequivocally that the Society is a democratic entity. Earlier this year we held elections and I ran for the post of Community Officer because I had a different take on where this important role should have headed. I presented my views to a meeting of a majority of Society members who then voted on who they believed was the person best suited to this job. Sadly I was not elected, however numerous people from the new committee encouraged me to attend meetings and participate in the Society.

The Society is reliant on the input of all members to be successful and therefore everyone is entitled to have a say in Society matters. Once a year a committee is democratically elected by Society members and we as members entrust these people to carry out the Society’s aim of supporting LARP. Incidentally I think the committee for this year is fantastic as was the first committee last year.

If you are concerned with the runnings, aims and processes of the Society then a way of further voicing those concerns would be to join up as a member and when elections roll around next year in September, run for a position. I would welcome developments by the Society so the rest of New Zealand has some representation in the Society (not just Auckland) and Christchurch is a great starting point. Change most often comes from within.

All opinions are valid, regardless or not of whether I or anyone else agree with them, we only ask they remain respectful of different views. If anyone on Diatribe or in the Society feels they have problems with having their opinions heard, discussed and considered, then we have a major problem. Fortunately I belive this is far from the case.[/quote]

Malu says it much better than I. Diatribe should be a place that anyone can express an opinion without the fear of being attacked personally. Opinions may be disected and disagreed with, and in that way the website lives up to its name, but there really is no need to bring anything personal into it.

In fact this very issue was discussed in the last committee meeting.

You should know Scottie, that as much you think Ryan is the puppet master behind us all, he has been the main voice in just gifting the Mordavia website and Mordavia specific gear to you and the Chch scene.

I am as yet undecided whether I think this is a good idea or not, because as much respect as I have for the fact that you started Mordavia with input from other people, the discussion in this thread has put me off a little bit in just trusting that anything we send you will be used for the good of larp in Chch. This is nothing personal against you, but I would feel better about it if the gift didnt go to an individual but rather to a ‘project’ for lack of a better word. This is just my opinion.

#48

Scott,

Mate, I feel your pain and I understand. I empathise because I’ve been through a similar thing. When I first started larping I sunk huge amounts of time and money into building stuff and the only return I got was a few really good games.

But I think you need to take a step back and realise that what has happened with the Mordavia IP and nzLarps is not an attempt to rip you off. nzLarps is a non profit and Mordavia being “given” to nzLarps is NOT Ryan transferring the Mordavia from Him to nzLarps. This “transfer” is just a bureaucratic way of saying:

  1. The Mordavia IP is owned by the NZ larpers
  2. nzLarps is a legal entity that represents the NZ larpers

That’s basically it.

When a social group grows, and money begins to accumulate, it is the responsible thing for people involved to create some kind of “organisation” that will take responsibility for the money. Part of the reason for this is because as a group people want to avoid a situation where “profit” from games ends up peoples pockets instead of being reinvested back into kit and providing a float for future games. nzLarps is the group that has been formed to do this. Having a constitution and elections is the way the group can be sure that larpers have some control of the assets of larpers.

I really don’t like committee meetings. The thing I most hate about running events is having to do “accounting” where I have to worry about money in and money out. Honestly, this is the single biggest thing that would stop me running an event. From your comments, I imagine you’re much the same. I would rather use my own money and end up making a $200 loss than have to spend time mucking around with trying to balance a game budget.

However, I have learned that it doesn’t have to be this way. There are other people who are good at this type of thing! You probably have people in Christchurch who are playing your games who will go to bat for you. Honestly, talk to the people you already have coming to games and say, “I hate dealing with the money, I need $250 + $30 per person to run the next game, can you deal with all the money please?” Or, you might even try, “nzLarps has some paperwork which we can fill out to get funding for group kit, can you try and get some money out of them please?”

We all need to play to our strengths. If your strength is making kit and dreaming up creatures and games, then do that.

I get a lot of this type of thing in the SCA. If you think nzLarps is an unnecessary level of bureaucracy, take a look at the SCA. There are incorporated societies in NZ, Australia the USA probably other countries as well. HUNDREDS of pages of rules and agreements. At the end of the day, this is not the SCA. The SCA is the people who go to the events and do medieval stuff. However, the people who run the incorporated societies all over the world do a very important job. They represent the interests of the group as a legal body.

Recently, Australia passed legislation to ban swords. The SCA (and other groups in Oz) took on the government and managed to get an exception, in law, for members of their clubs. Being a member of the SCA in Australia allows you to own and transport some weapons that would be illegal otherwise. nzLarps IS a good thing for larpers.

I honestly believe that nobody will ever be selling Mordavia for anything approaching real money. Please, please, prove me wrong here. However, if they do, the money is going back into nzLarps to be used for larping. Ryan isn’t going to use it to buy a car and nzLarps committee members will not be lining their own pockets.

EDIT: Scott, if you want to believe you’re owed a slice of the Mordavia Money Pie, you can believe that. That pie could possibly be a big fat juicy pie or a tiny, dry tasteless pie. Nobody really knowes at this point.

However, what you DO have from Mordavia is your history of success. You have a proven track record building kit, running games and making larps happen. I’m not a member of nzLarps, but if you look at Southern Mordavia in terms of investment and risk, you represent a low risk with the possibility of a good return.

#49

I do object to this remark, though. Apart from the fact that all members have influence, it must be seen that all Committee posts are elected and most were contested at the last AGM. I know you believe that Ryan runs everything but this is simply not true, as you’d know if you’d seen the recent discussion to the ‘Grand Battle’ scheme, and the disagreements with Ryans original financial plans.

The first year of nzLARPS’ operation Ryan was not even on the Committee, and did not attend meetings, being too busy with Mordavia.

In any case - this whole thing has blown out of proportion and it is a loss to all of us that we can’t be working together for the same goals. We all want to have a full LARP scene in NZ, after all - we’re just going about it differently. We need both the people who have the vision and the imagination AND the red tape/legal framework to protect it.

I think that some personal disagreements have coloured the argument and we’ve reached this stage before half of us are even clear on the full background, let alone what it is that you want or object to.

Maybe we can let things calm down for a bit and discuss things later. If you’re expecting to be up in Auckland in the near future then maybe a face to face meeting with some or all of us can help smooth things over, if we can go into it without expecting a fight… (an ironic statement for a proponent of a genre largely consisting of attacking each other with padded weapons)

#50

I think we’ve reached the point in the conversation where we either make rude gestures or shake hands.

#51

To be honest I’m at the stage now where I’ll just say…

“take it and go” I’ll just remember this day and I’ll make any judgements regarding the NZLARPS based on this day.

Funny thing about it was though if you had accepted the deal you would of found out where I am getting my raw materials that are 5 times cheaper than Aucklands pricing, further more a gear pool that would cost you next to nothing in a different town, and possibly even to boot winning me over eventually to the idea of joining the Society.

All that has happened here is that you’ve strengthen my resolve to have nothing to do with NZLARPS and to continue funding things the way I always have done over the last 11 years.

#52

I will try and quickly summarise my views as the founder, and president of NZLAPRS.
=> Scotty next time you are in Auckand I would very much like to meet you in person, I find a face to face meeting normally very beneficial, so please consider it and let me know.
=> Ryan does not control the club at all and does not hold any of the special positions within the committee, we all respect what people like him and you have done in creating Mordavia but he does not automatically get his way, he just controls Mordavia as GM’s do within the society. At the AGM both Ryan another person got the same number of votes. Ryan has had absolutely nothing to do with a lot of the important things that have happened within the society,
eg creating a number of new larps (stargate, Mayday, Ralvenhome, SAIL, Pirates etc)
getting other affiliates (America, Medieval shop, Skirmish, Nightmare Circle etc),
creating the constitution (very important)
=> As Derek says, one of aims of the society is to get creative people like you and Ryan together with people who like doing the organizing, accounting stuff. Once the society was created and Mordavia in Auckland became a full project with set people for the required roles, (GM, Gear, Logistics, Treasurer) Ryan’s time became a whole lot easier.
=> The selling Mordavia items in the last meeting, was from a discussion to sell the odd item for memento for die hard players and not all the gear. The idea of packaging the mordavia product is something I think is unlikely to happen purely from a, it would take a lot of work basket and we have to many other things to worry about.
=> It is a shame all of this has come to a head and you no longer want to consider a relationship with us with the discounts etc that you mentioned. When I read your earlier post I thought cool more larps in NZ. I understand Gareth went to a ChCh game and really enjoyed it, and I was speaking to a 1st time to the Auckland Mordavia game person last week and they were thinking of flying down to your next game. My hope is that we could continue to develop these links, because obviously the players want to. I think Nikki summirised the 2 forms of links very well (projects and affiliates) and personally I would love to get ChCh mordavia as an affiliate.

#53

Scottie,

It was my idea to canvas the concept of making some money out of the Mordavia “brand”. Largely because I recognise that Mordavia has run it’s course on Auckland so nzLARPS may as well turn the awesome asset that is Mordavia into money so we can kickstart more (and mayhap better) larps.

No one is trying to disrespect your contribution to Mordavia, but what we are trying to do is turn your claim of ownership into a way to fund larp in Christchurch. Please humour me in this: The real proposition is how to leverage Mordavia to fund larp development in Christchurch.

Let’s face it: Mordavia The Product ™ is about 50 hours from being any kind of saleable package - and even then it is a non-certain prospect at best. It is an enormous effort for no definite gain.

The easy-to-sell items are the Mordavia-only kit (mainly the scrolls plus the rulebook), and the domain. Real value kicks in when we have a product that allows n00b GMs to build up a game from nothing. But that’s 50 hours away, in my estimation.

So, the question remains, how can nzLARPS invest in Christchurch larp ? What would work for you ?

I would like to address your assertion that Ryan holds an influence over nzLARPS. The simple truth is that Ryan has done a lot for larp, and many people’s first experience of larp was at a game that Ryan was involved in running (often this was Mordavia). So, yes, I understand you conclusion that Ryan has some kind of influence on a personal or informal level.

But, I do not agree that it extends to nzLARPS. For a start, the mission of nzLARPS is to generate lots of larps, not just the one’s that Ryan may find appealing. Another example is the Grand Battle discussion - it was very robust, and Ryan’s concept was very much put to task. And this is for a potential project that is still in the planning stages.

For a Mordavian context, checkout this gem of a thread (warning, contains coarse language).

As long as we all agree that larp is cool, then we are on the same side. Derek is right: nzLARPS is there to deal with the bullshit, not generate it.

BTW, I’m in Christchurch for Xmas - lets catch up over a beer/coffee/chai latte and have a chat.

Mike