Just to be clear, so I can try to understand where you’re coming from, I’d like you to specifically detail what you see as your intellectual property.
Keeping in mind that anything derivative is not your IP.
Apart from the setting, the concept of it being LARP, the rule book was a step forward in LARPing introducing new techniques that were not seen in other LARPS.
The work put into it to get it off the ground from it’s infancy, a time when your fine self hadn’t stumbled upon the world.
There is plenty more, but really if we are going to get into that I prefer to do it with the Commitee and not a member 
.
Scott,
What is the legal status of the Southern Mordavia organisation ? Are you an incorporated society or similar ?
If nzLARPS is going to direct funding at an organisation, it would be much cleaner if this was an incorporated society or similar. Or are you suggesting the money go straight into your personal bank account ?
Also, I’d like to determine the extent of your claim to Mordavia-related resources. For example, a couple of years ago I made a suggestion on the forum a tree would be a cool large creature costume. Then Ryan et al made one for Endgame. Do I have IP in that, even though I didn’t do anything other than come up with an idea ?
Are you saying that you have IP in stuff we created after you left the game ? Or stuff that you had no hand in creating ?
These kind of details need to be understood before the committee can make an informed decision.
In addition, I would like to know why you do not wish Southern Mordavia to be an affiliate or project of nzLARPS because directing funding at a non-associated entity is not something that was contemplated when nzLARPs was founded. Knowing your reasons for disassociation is pertinent.
On the contrary, all of the many hours of labour that myself, Craig, Gareth, Steve, Mike, and many others have put into Mordavia kit has been 100% free. We have donated all the fruits of that labour to NZLARPS, because the society is dedicated to serving the larp community and we support that rather noble goal. The society is the only legal entity in NZ whose sole purpose is to attempt to provide anyone who asks with support for their larping. It was expressly created for the purpose of sharing resources with the community. It is not a club or a group, it is a cross-group resource sharing facility.
I just want this to be 100% clear. You want NZLARPS to give you some money that it might make in the future, to build some stuff that you will lend out until you decide to sell it and keep the profit. By that approach, NZLARPS is effectively giving you a personal payout. “Non-profit” is not the correct term in that instance.
I assume you don’t want to pass those resources back to the society that would have funded them because a) you feel you deserve personal compensation and/or b) you don’t want to support NZLARPS, perhaps because you are opposed to it as a concept or you have personal issues with some of the members.[/quote]
Right let’s address this in a different manner. The NZLARPS has already BENEFITED from my labour by their ownership of Mordavia which I was never asked about, and the remains of my kit that now sits in the gear pool, even if that is to cover working on an item with more than one person.
The funds I am requesting are based on the work I had put into Mordavia that they are benefitting from, but as long as they replenish what they spend on the project I had no objection to it being used. HOWEVER if they are to sell the fruits of my labour and take in more than they began with regarding the Mordavia Project then I as the original founder would expect to be compensated for my efforts.
The expense account was a way to show that the money gained from the transactions of the sale of Mordavia would be used as a non-profit kit purchase fund for the Southern Mordavia group, keeping in mind this is the money the Society have gained from a Mordavia sale, in fact I should be asking for a direct payout as they are selling a piece of my work without permission or a negotiated deal. However keeping in mind that the Society is a supporter of the LARP community I too felt it necessary to put my funds gained from the sale of my work in founding the event back into the Larp Community in Christchurch.
Keeping in mind these funds are not a “LOAN” by the NZLARPS but are the actual percentage of Mordavia sale which I do have some ownership right of.
These funds then are used to enhance the local Christchurch kit gear pool, which will be stored and created by a non NZLARPS member, affiiliate, or project, so in effect yes I own the kit outright, but as I’ve stated before I have always loaned kit out to any interested parties, just in the above agreement this then extends to NZLARPS as a gesture of goodwill for coming to the party on the ownership fiasco.
SO infact the society has NOT funded the kit at all, they have just paid out what they should given in the circumstances that Mordavia was given / sold without consulting one of the Partners in the project.
Therefore I do have the right upon my withdrawal from the larp community to sell these items, however this is the reason why they will be sold at cost + a surcharge, if the Society buys or does not buy them then so be it, but personally they would be better served in the Christchurch area by what I hope by then a clued up replacement organiser.
The flip side of this is if a member of my group was to take complete control of the group then the kit would be transfered into their ownership.
Further more it is not so different from what Paddy Whack is trying to do, except you run that as a business and I run my kit as club gear that is funded and created out of my own pocket.
Ryan if you wish to donate your slice free of charge this is your own personal choice, however in this example I do not wish to donate it free of charge in the event of a sale that puts more money into the coffers of the society than they begun with. I am asking for a percentage of 20% which I thought was quite reasonable, I didn’t want it to seem unreasonable.
In the end the funds gained from the sale under myself will be used in growing the community in Christchurch, so in the end we all win.
[quote=“Mike Curtis”]Scott,
What is the legal status of the Southern Mordavia organisation ? Are you an incorporated society or similar ?
If nzLARPS is going to direct funding at an organisation, it would be much cleaner if this was an incorporated society or similar. Or are you suggesting the money go straight into your personal bank account ?
Also, I’d like to determine the extent of your claim to Mordavia-related resources. For example, a couple of years ago I made a suggestion on the forum a tree would be a cool large creature costume. Then Ryan et al made one for Endgame. Do I have IP in that, even though I didn’t do anything other than come up with an idea ?
Are you saying that you have IP in stuff we created after you left the game ? Or stuff that you had no hand in creating ?
These kind of details need to be understood before the committee can make an informed decision.
In addition, I would like to know why you do not wish Southern Mordavia to be an affiliate or project of nzLARPS because directing funding at a non-associated entity is not something that was contemplated when nzLARPs was founded. Knowing your reasons for disassociation is pertinent.[/quote]
Mike,
If you are to read back over the posts I think you’ll be able to answer where those funds go too once allocated, but to save time, the funds will be held by the Society in an Expense account that the Southern Mordavia group can draw from via quotations being provided to the Society by raw suppliers resources, the Society then pays the quotation directly, I or the group never handles one bean of those funds.
The claim is based on the concept of making Mordavia into a LARP, writting and creating a unique rule book and spending effort and time on research via test games, which I retain the original first three versions of the rule book to this very day, the work put into getting the group together with the transfer of my own groups gear before the first events of Mordavia, the time and expenditure spent. Your system is based on my work and a good portion of it still is relevant to the first three versions of the rule book that I realased. I’m sure Ryan can shed more light on my efforts, infact we got to a stage where Ryan was sick of the phone call a day he recieved during its creation.
In response to the status of my group, it is not a Society we are merely a hobbiest group like many of your other projects, affiliates.
Why I do not wish to be part of the Society is a different issue, I wish to remain on the topic of the Sale of Mordavia, if you wish to know more PM me directly, but there are a few members who know why I will not be apart of it.
On the contrary, all of the many hours of labour that myself, Craig, Gareth, Steve, Mike, and many others have put into Mordavia kit has been 100% free. We have donated all the fruits of that labour to NZLARPS, because the society is dedicated to serving the larp community and we support that rather noble goal. [/quote]
If you wish to donate your fruits of your labour to your Society then so be it, it is not a Society I am affiliated with or a project of let alone a member, the fruits of my labour are available to the LARP Community to use, and ultimately if I choose to retire from larp then the fruits of my labour will be sold to the LARP community at cost + Surcharge. Please keep in mind no level of surcharge will ever fully recoup monies spent on a gear pool.
Blimey, where did this argument suddenly spring from?
Seems to me Scott is asserting a 20% ownership of whatever parts of Mordavia are copyrightable (since much of it is derivative of the old computer game and hence barely legal). As a result he wants 20% of any money the Society make form selling anything (eg, domain name, rule books, franchise etc). The basis for this claim is his being one of the 3 original cofounders of the game.
It would be easier if we could all work together as part of nzLARPs on this but obviously this is not to be (I don’t know the details of the ‘differences’ and at this point it probably doesn’t matter anyways).
Since there was no original contract on this sort of thing (luckily nzLARPS project documents include this, so we can’t have this sort of issue in the future) the first thing to work out is to objectively decide if this is a valid claim, and if so, what he has partial ownership of (the rulebook, the ‘brand’, the gear… etc). After that we can move forward.
Is there really that much money involved in any case, if it is just the mordavia.com domain name and the rulebook? Would we even be able to sell mordavia.com at all? For what it’s worth, I feel he may well be entitled to something, but I’d need to get a bit more of the history (before I joined) to make a proper judgement.
This very inaccurate comparison has really crystallised this whole question for me. I thought there was something wrong with your wanting to make money from starting Mordavia, but I couldn’t put my finger on exactly what it was. Now I’ve got it pegged.
Paddywhack was created and advertised from the outset as a business. Everyone knew that I was selling weapons at a profit. I funded it entirely myself, getting a small loan from a bank to do it. Everyone who buys a sword from me knows the deal.
Mordavia, by comparison, was created and advertised as a non-profit organisation. We put up posters saying “non-profit LARP group based in Auckland”, or words to that effect.
For this reason, no-one can claim that their partial “ownership” of Mordavia entitles them to profit. By definition nobody can own a non-profit, and no-one should make profit from its operation.
A non-profit can buy stuff, and the seller may profit. It can choose to hire labour, and the labourer may profit. The labourer may even be a contributer to the non-profit who chooses to charge for certain services, so long as their is no conflict of interest. This is why as operator of Mordavia I never had Mordavia purchase swords from Paddywhack, because I didn’t want a conflict of interest. Once the society formed it chose to buy weapons from Paddywhack for use at Mordavia and other larps, but that was a decision made independant of me, so there was no conflict. The key thing in that case is that the non-profit makes a conscious choice in the knowledge of its options and their relative costs.
You cannot claim to have provided a non-profit with a service after the fact, having never notified the non-profit that you expected remuneration, and expect remuneration now. You cannot claim that you are personally owed monies from a non-profit as its owner or creator. Nobody owns a non-profit. Nobody owns Mordavia, it is a non-profit community group and was advertised as such from the outset.
You’re incorrect. I had no choice but to do my best to keep the Mordavia gear and brand in a non-profit state, because that’s what we’ve promised all the people who have given Mordavia their time and money over the years. We promised them that Mordavia is non-profit. Therefore the clearest option when Mordavia was wrapping up was to form another non-profit organisation that would allow the community continued use of the resources they had funded and helped to create under the Mordavia brand.
I see no conflict of interest or violation in the promise of a non-profit organisation in helping you to create a public resource for larpers in Christchurch, from which you will benefit from the use of along with the rest of the Christchurch larp community.
But for you to make personal profit from supposed ownership of something that can’t be owned (Mordavia, a non-profit community organisation) would be wrong.
Right I’m not going to read your complete post because as per usual you’ve twisted my words into your advantage, a feat you are pretty good at being an english gramma expert.
The kit that I am loaning to the community to use has been funded from my own pocket and my spare time, if I choose to sell that kit then as a curteousy it will be sold for the cost of the materials and the surcharge, not in attempt to make a profit but in an attempt to recoup some of the money spent, thus still making it NON-PROFIT as I will never recoup the costs fully. However if the group is to continue on, then the superceeding Organiser will inherit the kit.
You great over sized pillick, why the heck do you think for one second I am out to make a profit? The whole idea of the expense account is that I have no direct draw from what was to be put into the kit or donated to Southern players to build their own kit, I do not profit in this what so ever, if I retire which the likely hood would be when I’m old and flakey then I would sell kit at cost plus a surcharge or give it to the superceeding Organiser, if sold it is NOT to profit but to recoup some of the costs involved in making, maintaining, storing and transporting a gear pool that will superceed the size of the current Mordavia gear pool by two times the volume easily.
I’ve requested this motion to be put to the commitee, so the question now is, is this proposal going ahead on a commitee vote?
Before your rebutal please answer that question above in clear understandable english, as I am not playing the word twisty game with you Ryan or anyone else for that matter.
We were extremely close to a motion on the previous page, stop trying to turn me into the bastard out to make a profit, because in the end the only people who benefit from this are the LARP community in Christchurch not myself if you’d like that as part of a signed agreement then I’m happy to do so.
There is not any way that I will ever recoup monies spent on LARP let alone make a profit, this is the sole reason why Lincoln Wood Resigned from the whole affair.
Ryan if you are going to donate Mordavia to the Society and expect nothing from any form of sale that is your choice, I never was consulted about Mordavia being handed to the NZLARPS or the possible selling of it, you have cut a partner completely out of the process and for that are breaching on the project we endeavored on together (as stated above) partners, regardless of non-profit, you have given up your share to the society, I have not, if you think for one second that the Society will get the full benefit of selling the project as whatever and depositing the sale funds into their account without prior consulting of a Project owner then guess again I will fight it the whole way and I expect to lose a lot of monies in the process, but the principle of the situation will be worth the expense.
For the record to answer Mike’s question about why I will not affiliate with the Society.
The above is one of the main reasons, while Ryan was not on the commitee in the beginning he still has a lot of say in LARP matters as he’s looked upon as the main LARP resource in NZ, his influence has A devote following of followers that only end up supporting his arguement regardless of how unreasonable it is.
I cannot align with any society that would be influenced, which it is and though it denies it. By an individual that has this sort of influence and ability to turn any situation around to his advantage.
Also there is a member on the commitee who also has a large amount of influence that has serverely insulted me in a statement they made during a MSN conversation, all because I choose to grow the Christchurch LARP scene without society help.
While these people have influence over the Society and the Commitee I can not align myself with the society with a feeling of an even keel that will be heard, one where a compromise is not twisted round to someone elses advantage.
The deal I was proposing was a good one, and really I thought long and hard on how I could make it fair for all parties involved, and how to make sure it DID not profit me, trying to keep in line with the NON-PROFIT badge that it wears.
However I do feel that if the Society who recoups their monies after each event was to sell this project and take those funds into their account, then they HAVE profited from the sale as those funds were never there to start with.
I am also concerned that the commitee thus far has been represented by Ryan 90% of this topic, this is a true concern for the Society and it’s commitee that is impatial and not influenced by any member sigh.
I was wondering how long it would take for you to devolve into personal attacks. I’ll kindly ask you to stop please and play nice. Not because I’m defending Ryan because i’m one of
Also I don’t think its accurate to say that the committee has been 90% represented by Ryan so far. Mike, Craig and Steve are all present, reading and contributing. As am I, but going by a previous statement of yours you’re not interested in talking to a member, only the comittee. Well you’ve got 44% of the committee.
I think part of the problem here is definition of Non-Profit.
My understanding of non-profit for Mordavia and NZLARPS is that any labour or time I contribute, to either endeavour, I don’t expect or want any reimbursement for. I’m not aware of anybody that contributed to Mordavia, or NZLARPS, either with time organising or building/creating gear that has been paid for their labour or expected to be paid for it.
But according to what you’ve stated written so far you DO expect reimbursement for you labour.
[quote=“Rasker”]
The remaining gear will remain in my care, I will not give away hours of labour for free. In the unlikely event I retire completely, then this gear will be sold at cost of materials plus a surcharge for time spent on construction[/quote]
So herein lies part of the problem. If NZLARPS did give you any money you would eventually be receiving personal financial gain from it.
Scottie,
The reason I have not posted thus far in this debate is because I had nothing more to add then what was already being said.
However as a member of the committee and as a member of the society I have a few questions.
Before the questions, first of all Id like to say that any one who is a member of the New Zealand Live Action Role Playing Society has a right to put in their two cents in this discussion. I don’t think it was right, before when you professed not to want to discuss with Scotty Marks his questions.
We as the committee represent our membership and I find it quite valuable to have anyone of our members’ input. Just to be clear, this is a discussion between adults and I will ask you this one time not make personal attacks on anyone in these forums. If you have something to say to Ryan then keep it in the PM’s please.
Now the questions:
How do you quantify something like the amount of ‘effort’ put into Mordavia. I’m interested to know how you came up with the figure of 20% of the as yet non existant proffit that could be made from a sale of Mordavia?
If we were to not ‘sell’ Mordavia, which is still more likely than not, considering the amount of effort that would have to go into developing Mordavia as a franchiseable product, would you still want to claim your 20%?
I don’t know any of the history here, and frankly I don’t think it should matter. But if a motion is put forward and I am to vote on wether or not to pay a non afiliated entity out from our ‘coffers’ then I think my questions are jusifiable.
Hiya Nikki,
thanks for joining in the discussion.
Thats means we now have 55% of the NZLARPS committee present.
hello
i appologise for my ignorance on how the NZLARPs society works before i begin. from what little i know it is a society (of which i am a member… or will be when i can get around to organising paying for renued membership) whos goal is to support Live Action Role Play in New Zealand, hence the name. however, as far as i know all the members of the committee are from Auckland, as are most of the LARPs assosiated with it, and thus those people in Auckland (me included) get more from and have more input into the society then people from the rest of New Zealand. do correct me if there are other LARPs around New Zealand who also benifit from the society, although if there are i doubt they get quite as much benifit from it, or put as much towards it, as is gained and given from Auckland (although again i am only guessing). as far as i can see, unless the society comes up with a way that other areas also benifit as much as Auckland does, it will remain an Auckland dominated society.
now, as to the topic on hand, as Scottie is not a member for whatever reason, the society seems reluctant to help his cause. On the other hand, he has no guarantee that joining will benifit him much anyway. should he join, then the society would be compelled to give him whatever support he needs. however, the resourses given by the society would then go to Christchirch, and i dont know how many people are members there, but im guessing not a lot. So from what i can see, whether the society helps the Southern Mordavia or not balances on a $20 membership fee. while the principle of the matter means that the payment comes before the help, i suggest the help should come volunteeraly from the society to show and enchourage other people from Christchirch to join, even if Scottie wont.
anyway, theres my two cents. i appologise for any non-making-senseness in it, as its late and im generally unorganised with my points.
Hi Walter
Just to clarify for you.
The society will do its best to help LARP anywhere in NZ. We have existing channels that people can apply for assistance through and you do not have to be a member to apply for assistance.
We have two main methods of funding or assisting LARP in NZ.
- Is through Projects. Any project that is accepted by the committee is then owned by the society (in terms of any gear that is created goes to the gear library and any profit made comes back to the society) and is not only helped finacially but also with gear and support from experienced GM’s and organisers (if its wanted). However creative control of the LARP remains with the Project owner (The person who created the LARP).
Benefits of this include the fact that if the Project happens to make a loss, then the society bears the loss and not the individual person.
Examples of NZLARPS Projects are:
Mordavia
Diatribe
The (name soon to be revealed) magazine.
Pirates
- Is through Affiliation. Through an affiliation with NZLARPS, any orgaisation or person can have a tailored agreement with NZLARPS as to how we will benefit each other.
For example; Nightmare Circle (a larp run by Raoul) is affiliated and as part of the agreement nzLARPS made TNC a website and in return TNC offers a discount for our members to play at its games. (this is a much simplified version of the agreement but is basically what it boils down to) TNC keeps complete ownership of any gear it creates, any profit it makes and complete creative control.
So you see, through an affiliation we can help any larp anywhere in NZ and each affiliation is tailored to what the individual organisations or people want from the society and what the society asks in return.
I hope I made sense Walter, as my post too was made in the wee smalls. For a better explination check out the nzLARPS website: nzlarps.org
The website has definitions and explinations of Projects and Affiliation.
Hi Walter,
You don’t have to be a member of the society to create a Project or Affiliate, so Scottie wouldn’t have to pay $20 membership to benefit in those ways. He doesn’t want to because he doesn’t like the society.
Personally I’d be happy for the society to send him funding to create kit for use by the Christchurch society, so long as the stuff created is either the property of the society or will be gifted back to the society if he can no longer make it available to the community (e.g. if he retires from larp). I think this is a very minor concession for him, but he’s not keen on the idea.
Sure, I think the committee is always happy to consider any proposal. There was never any question about whether the committee would take a suggestion you’ve made to a vote.
I was just trying to get your proposal into a state where I think it would be more likely to be accepted. I think the society would be more likely to fund gear for you if the gear comes back in the society eventually. If you never retire, as you say you won’t, then that wouldn’t be an issue for you.
I’d like the society to fund you in some way. Otherwise I would have left you to it with a proposal that looks really unlikely to be accepted, rather than try to help you make it acceptable.
Nikki suggests this whole question will be moot if the society doesn’t want to sell any Mordavia stuff, which it hasn’t decided. I don’t think this is true - even if we don’t sell Mordavia I’d still like the society to fund you.
[quote=“Scotty”]Hiya Nikki,
thanks for joining in the discussion.
Thats means we now have 55% of the NZLARPS committee present.[/quote]
Now 66%.
I read all this, and at times find it heavy going. I’m not entirely sure about my position on this, which is why I don’t post much about it. Also I don’t want people saying that I don’t know what I’m talking about, and jumping down my throat. If that happened I wouldn’t be able to keep an objective opinion, and would instead become bolshy.
I don’t know the complete history of Mordavia, not being there. But Garath was telling me of how a bunch of people who liked LARP got togeather, and made magic happen. Now, like the plot of Mordavia, bad things this way come.
I’m coming to the point of view that Scott should get the Mordavia Specific items, and the rest, like the things that I helped build, helped pay for in a small way, without forethought of recompense, should stay in the Auckland gear library. As for the website, I just don’t know yet. But am not adverse to “scooping” out the current content and archiving it somewhere to be a historical document of the Auckland game.
If Scott wants to be the custodian of the Chch gear library, then kudos for him. And there is nothing to stop Scott applying for funding through the normal channels. Indeed, I ask him to, so that the Chch game can get off the ground, and we can again fulfill our charter of promoting LARP in NZ.
Now, with all the input from various people, I feel that packaging “Mordavia, the game” and trying to make money on it is futile, and likely to get us sued by Sierra. So, no to that.
I’ve had it, have it take it and thank god you didn’t take the offer of loaning my kit.
It’s the same story over again, same as all the other times I’ve gone head to head with his Highness and came out looking like a total dick.
My offer of giving your society members discounts on events in Christchurch and loaning equipment is now null invoid, you’ve burnt the bridges and there is no going back, don’t even think about approaching me about joining or promoting your society if at all anything I shall be doing the exact opposite. I’m sure Exquire has a lovely word he can use to describe that attitude, you know the nice “H” word prat.
There was a substantially nice olive branch in there that would of given you a foot hold in another city especially in a kit base that is substantially newer and better built than anything other piece of kit you own bar Excalibre weaponary.
This experience has only showed me who really is control of this so called independant Society, for the love of Hades if you want to progress any further you need neutral minded people like Mike Curtis in the committe.
Take the system sell it or do any other crud thing with it, I am just so over butting heads with his Highness. If anything moving to Christchurch was the smartest move I ever made, I’m achieving things that were restricted by one persons frame of mind and if anything I see things being quite golden here in Christchurch for LARP, especially with the kit that is being produced and the story lines that are being built, not to mention Total Eclipse when it’s written.
This whole conversation has only strengthen my resolve to improve things for the LARPing community, with or without a Society running about the country claiming to be Independant and democratic what total BS.
I want the whole proposal dropped, if it goes ahead and it is agreed to then those funds are to be Donated to the Saga Society for their efforts in the RPG sector of Christchurch.
Your Highness the jester says “Get Bent sire!”
I’ll show my own way out no need for security, I’m sure this conversation will go extremely well without my presence to comment.
Thread delivers.