Mordavia - The Franchise or Sale - Agenda Proposal

nzLARPS
#28

This very inaccurate comparison has really crystallised this whole question for me. I thought there was something wrong with your wanting to make money from starting Mordavia, but I couldn’t put my finger on exactly what it was. Now I’ve got it pegged.

Paddywhack was created and advertised from the outset as a business. Everyone knew that I was selling weapons at a profit. I funded it entirely myself, getting a small loan from a bank to do it. Everyone who buys a sword from me knows the deal.

Mordavia, by comparison, was created and advertised as a non-profit organisation. We put up posters saying “non-profit LARP group based in Auckland”, or words to that effect.

For this reason, no-one can claim that their partial “ownership” of Mordavia entitles them to profit. By definition nobody can own a non-profit, and no-one should make profit from its operation.

A non-profit can buy stuff, and the seller may profit. It can choose to hire labour, and the labourer may profit. The labourer may even be a contributer to the non-profit who chooses to charge for certain services, so long as their is no conflict of interest. This is why as operator of Mordavia I never had Mordavia purchase swords from Paddywhack, because I didn’t want a conflict of interest. Once the society formed it chose to buy weapons from Paddywhack for use at Mordavia and other larps, but that was a decision made independant of me, so there was no conflict. The key thing in that case is that the non-profit makes a conscious choice in the knowledge of its options and their relative costs.

You cannot claim to have provided a non-profit with a service after the fact, having never notified the non-profit that you expected remuneration, and expect remuneration now. You cannot claim that you are personally owed monies from a non-profit as its owner or creator. Nobody owns a non-profit. Nobody owns Mordavia, it is a non-profit community group and was advertised as such from the outset.

You’re incorrect. I had no choice but to do my best to keep the Mordavia gear and brand in a non-profit state, because that’s what we’ve promised all the people who have given Mordavia their time and money over the years. We promised them that Mordavia is non-profit. Therefore the clearest option when Mordavia was wrapping up was to form another non-profit organisation that would allow the community continued use of the resources they had funded and helped to create under the Mordavia brand.

I see no conflict of interest or violation in the promise of a non-profit organisation in helping you to create a public resource for larpers in Christchurch, from which you will benefit from the use of along with the rest of the Christchurch larp community.

But for you to make personal profit from supposed ownership of something that can’t be owned (Mordavia, a non-profit community organisation) would be wrong.

#29

Right I’m not going to read your complete post because as per usual you’ve twisted my words into your advantage, a feat you are pretty good at being an english gramma expert.

The kit that I am loaning to the community to use has been funded from my own pocket and my spare time, if I choose to sell that kit then as a curteousy it will be sold for the cost of the materials and the surcharge, not in attempt to make a profit but in an attempt to recoup some of the money spent, thus still making it NON-PROFIT as I will never recoup the costs fully. However if the group is to continue on, then the superceeding Organiser will inherit the kit.

You great over sized pillick, why the heck do you think for one second I am out to make a profit? The whole idea of the expense account is that I have no direct draw from what was to be put into the kit or donated to Southern players to build their own kit, I do not profit in this what so ever, if I retire which the likely hood would be when I’m old and flakey then I would sell kit at cost plus a surcharge or give it to the superceeding Organiser, if sold it is NOT to profit but to recoup some of the costs involved in making, maintaining, storing and transporting a gear pool that will superceed the size of the current Mordavia gear pool by two times the volume easily.

I’ve requested this motion to be put to the commitee, so the question now is, is this proposal going ahead on a commitee vote?

Before your rebutal please answer that question above in clear understandable english, as I am not playing the word twisty game with you Ryan or anyone else for that matter.

We were extremely close to a motion on the previous page, stop trying to turn me into the bastard out to make a profit, because in the end the only people who benefit from this are the LARP community in Christchurch not myself if you’d like that as part of a signed agreement then I’m happy to do so.

There is not any way that I will ever recoup monies spent on LARP let alone make a profit, this is the sole reason why Lincoln Wood Resigned from the whole affair.

Ryan if you are going to donate Mordavia to the Society and expect nothing from any form of sale that is your choice, I never was consulted about Mordavia being handed to the NZLARPS or the possible selling of it, you have cut a partner completely out of the process and for that are breaching on the project we endeavored on together (as stated above) partners, regardless of non-profit, you have given up your share to the society, I have not, if you think for one second that the Society will get the full benefit of selling the project as whatever and depositing the sale funds into their account without prior consulting of a Project owner then guess again I will fight it the whole way and I expect to lose a lot of monies in the process, but the principle of the situation will be worth the expense.

#30

For the record to answer Mike’s question about why I will not affiliate with the Society.

The above is one of the main reasons, while Ryan was not on the commitee in the beginning he still has a lot of say in LARP matters as he’s looked upon as the main LARP resource in NZ, his influence has A devote following of followers that only end up supporting his arguement regardless of how unreasonable it is.

I cannot align with any society that would be influenced, which it is and though it denies it. By an individual that has this sort of influence and ability to turn any situation around to his advantage.

Also there is a member on the commitee who also has a large amount of influence that has serverely insulted me in a statement they made during a MSN conversation, all because I choose to grow the Christchurch LARP scene without society help.

While these people have influence over the Society and the Commitee I can not align myself with the society with a feeling of an even keel that will be heard, one where a compromise is not twisted round to someone elses advantage.

The deal I was proposing was a good one, and really I thought long and hard on how I could make it fair for all parties involved, and how to make sure it DID not profit me, trying to keep in line with the NON-PROFIT badge that it wears.

However I do feel that if the Society who recoups their monies after each event was to sell this project and take those funds into their account, then they HAVE profited from the sale as those funds were never there to start with.

I am also concerned that the commitee thus far has been represented by Ryan 90% of this topic, this is a true concern for the Society and it’s commitee that is impatial and not influenced by any member sigh.

#31

I was wondering how long it would take for you to devolve into personal attacks. I’ll kindly ask you to stop please and play nice. Not because I’m defending Ryan because i’m one of

Also I don’t think its accurate to say that the committee has been 90% represented by Ryan so far. Mike, Craig and Steve are all present, reading and contributing. As am I, but going by a previous statement of yours you’re not interested in talking to a member, only the comittee. Well you’ve got 44% of the committee.

I think part of the problem here is definition of Non-Profit.
My understanding of non-profit for Mordavia and NZLARPS is that any labour or time I contribute, to either endeavour, I don’t expect or want any reimbursement for. I’m not aware of anybody that contributed to Mordavia, or NZLARPS, either with time organising or building/creating gear that has been paid for their labour or expected to be paid for it.
But according to what you’ve stated written so far you DO expect reimbursement for you labour.

[quote=“Rasker”]
The remaining gear will remain in my care, I will not give away hours of labour for free. In the unlikely event I retire completely, then this gear will be sold at cost of materials plus a surcharge for time spent on construction[/quote]

So herein lies part of the problem. If NZLARPS did give you any money you would eventually be receiving personal financial gain from it.

#32

Scottie,

The reason I have not posted thus far in this debate is because I had nothing more to add then what was already being said.

However as a member of the committee and as a member of the society I have a few questions.

Before the questions, first of all Id like to say that any one who is a member of the New Zealand Live Action Role Playing Society has a right to put in their two cents in this discussion. I don’t think it was right, before when you professed not to want to discuss with Scotty Marks his questions.

We as the committee represent our membership and I find it quite valuable to have anyone of our members’ input. Just to be clear, this is a discussion between adults and I will ask you this one time not make personal attacks on anyone in these forums. If you have something to say to Ryan then keep it in the PM’s please.

Now the questions:

How do you quantify something like the amount of ‘effort’ put into Mordavia. I’m interested to know how you came up with the figure of 20% of the as yet non existant proffit that could be made from a sale of Mordavia?

If we were to not ‘sell’ Mordavia, which is still more likely than not, considering the amount of effort that would have to go into developing Mordavia as a franchiseable product, would you still want to claim your 20%?

I don’t know any of the history here, and frankly I don’t think it should matter. But if a motion is put forward and I am to vote on wether or not to pay a non afiliated entity out from our ‘coffers’ then I think my questions are jusifiable.

#33

Hiya Nikki,
thanks for joining in the discussion.
Thats means we now have 55% of the NZLARPS committee present.

#34

hello

i appologise for my ignorance on how the NZLARPs society works before i begin. from what little i know it is a society (of which i am a member… or will be when i can get around to organising paying for renued membership) whos goal is to support Live Action Role Play in New Zealand, hence the name. however, as far as i know all the members of the committee are from Auckland, as are most of the LARPs assosiated with it, and thus those people in Auckland (me included) get more from and have more input into the society then people from the rest of New Zealand. do correct me if there are other LARPs around New Zealand who also benifit from the society, although if there are i doubt they get quite as much benifit from it, or put as much towards it, as is gained and given from Auckland (although again i am only guessing). as far as i can see, unless the society comes up with a way that other areas also benifit as much as Auckland does, it will remain an Auckland dominated society.

now, as to the topic on hand, as Scottie is not a member for whatever reason, the society seems reluctant to help his cause. On the other hand, he has no guarantee that joining will benifit him much anyway. should he join, then the society would be compelled to give him whatever support he needs. however, the resourses given by the society would then go to Christchirch, and i dont know how many people are members there, but im guessing not a lot. So from what i can see, whether the society helps the Southern Mordavia or not balances on a $20 membership fee. while the principle of the matter means that the payment comes before the help, i suggest the help should come volunteeraly from the society to show and enchourage other people from Christchirch to join, even if Scottie wont.

anyway, theres my two cents. i appologise for any non-making-senseness in it, as its late and im generally unorganised with my points.

#35

Hi Walter

Just to clarify for you.

The society will do its best to help LARP anywhere in NZ. We have existing channels that people can apply for assistance through and you do not have to be a member to apply for assistance.

We have two main methods of funding or assisting LARP in NZ.

  1. Is through Projects. Any project that is accepted by the committee is then owned by the society (in terms of any gear that is created goes to the gear library and any profit made comes back to the society) and is not only helped finacially but also with gear and support from experienced GM’s and organisers (if its wanted). However creative control of the LARP remains with the Project owner (The person who created the LARP).

Benefits of this include the fact that if the Project happens to make a loss, then the society bears the loss and not the individual person.

Examples of NZLARPS Projects are:

Mordavia
Diatribe
The (name soon to be revealed) magazine.
Pirates

  1. Is through Affiliation. Through an affiliation with NZLARPS, any orgaisation or person can have a tailored agreement with NZLARPS as to how we will benefit each other.

For example; Nightmare Circle (a larp run by Raoul) is affiliated and as part of the agreement nzLARPS made TNC a website and in return TNC offers a discount for our members to play at its games. (this is a much simplified version of the agreement but is basically what it boils down to) TNC keeps complete ownership of any gear it creates, any profit it makes and complete creative control.

So you see, through an affiliation we can help any larp anywhere in NZ and each affiliation is tailored to what the individual organisations or people want from the society and what the society asks in return.

I hope I made sense Walter, as my post too was made in the wee smalls. For a better explination check out the nzLARPS website: nzlarps.org

The website has definitions and explinations of Projects and Affiliation.

#36

Hi Walter,

You don’t have to be a member of the society to create a Project or Affiliate, so Scottie wouldn’t have to pay $20 membership to benefit in those ways. He doesn’t want to because he doesn’t like the society.

Personally I’d be happy for the society to send him funding to create kit for use by the Christchurch society, so long as the stuff created is either the property of the society or will be gifted back to the society if he can no longer make it available to the community (e.g. if he retires from larp). I think this is a very minor concession for him, but he’s not keen on the idea.

#37

Sure, I think the committee is always happy to consider any proposal. There was never any question about whether the committee would take a suggestion you’ve made to a vote.

I was just trying to get your proposal into a state where I think it would be more likely to be accepted. I think the society would be more likely to fund gear for you if the gear comes back in the society eventually. If you never retire, as you say you won’t, then that wouldn’t be an issue for you.

I’d like the society to fund you in some way. Otherwise I would have left you to it with a proposal that looks really unlikely to be accepted, rather than try to help you make it acceptable.

Nikki suggests this whole question will be moot if the society doesn’t want to sell any Mordavia stuff, which it hasn’t decided. I don’t think this is true - even if we don’t sell Mordavia I’d still like the society to fund you.

#38

[quote=“Scotty”]Hiya Nikki,
thanks for joining in the discussion.
Thats means we now have 55% of the NZLARPS committee present.[/quote]

Now 66%.

I read all this, and at times find it heavy going. I’m not entirely sure about my position on this, which is why I don’t post much about it. Also I don’t want people saying that I don’t know what I’m talking about, and jumping down my throat. If that happened I wouldn’t be able to keep an objective opinion, and would instead become bolshy.

I don’t know the complete history of Mordavia, not being there. But Garath was telling me of how a bunch of people who liked LARP got togeather, and made magic happen. Now, like the plot of Mordavia, bad things this way come.

I’m coming to the point of view that Scott should get the Mordavia Specific items, and the rest, like the things that I helped build, helped pay for in a small way, without forethought of recompense, should stay in the Auckland gear library. As for the website, I just don’t know yet. But am not adverse to “scooping” out the current content and archiving it somewhere to be a historical document of the Auckland game.

If Scott wants to be the custodian of the Chch gear library, then kudos for him. And there is nothing to stop Scott applying for funding through the normal channels. Indeed, I ask him to, so that the Chch game can get off the ground, and we can again fulfill our charter of promoting LARP in NZ.

Now, with all the input from various people, I feel that packaging “Mordavia, the game” and trying to make money on it is futile, and likely to get us sued by Sierra. So, no to that.

#39

I’ve had it, have it take it and thank god you didn’t take the offer of loaning my kit.

It’s the same story over again, same as all the other times I’ve gone head to head with his Highness and came out looking like a total dick.

My offer of giving your society members discounts on events in Christchurch and loaning equipment is now null invoid, you’ve burnt the bridges and there is no going back, don’t even think about approaching me about joining or promoting your society if at all anything I shall be doing the exact opposite. I’m sure Exquire has a lovely word he can use to describe that attitude, you know the nice “H” word prat.

There was a substantially nice olive branch in there that would of given you a foot hold in another city especially in a kit base that is substantially newer and better built than anything other piece of kit you own bar Excalibre weaponary.

This experience has only showed me who really is control of this so called independant Society, for the love of Hades if you want to progress any further you need neutral minded people like Mike Curtis in the committe.

Take the system sell it or do any other crud thing with it, I am just so over butting heads with his Highness. If anything moving to Christchurch was the smartest move I ever made, I’m achieving things that were restricted by one persons frame of mind and if anything I see things being quite golden here in Christchurch for LARP, especially with the kit that is being produced and the story lines that are being built, not to mention Total Eclipse when it’s written.

This whole conversation has only strengthen my resolve to improve things for the LARPing community, with or without a Society running about the country claiming to be Independant and democratic what total BS.

I want the whole proposal dropped, if it goes ahead and it is agreed to then those funds are to be Donated to the Saga Society for their efforts in the RPG sector of Christchurch.

Your Highness the jester says “Get Bent sire!”

I’ll show my own way out no need for security, I’m sure this conversation will go extremely well without my presence to comment.

#40

Thread delivers.

#41

How odd, we almost had a good motion designed that would probably have passed.

The committee meets once a month and we’ve already done this month, so I think everyone was just making sure we got the best agreement possible out of this.

I hope everybody knows - the committee will act upon any issue members or non-members bring forward.

To explain the obscure “H word” remark, I once idly reminded Scott that leadership revolving around the wishes of a single person hasn’t succeeded in the past by saying “Hitler tried that too” on IM. It was a bit un-called for but I was (of course) describing Scott’s actions, not Scott himself. Seems to have come off another way. Anyway that was November 2005.

For reference though, I don’t mind if anyone calls me a “prat,” that’s fine.

Scott, I don’t think your argument suffered from who you were up against, I think it suffered from being uncooperative. We’ve given alternative channels to achieve what you want but you haven’t taken us up on them. We clearly didn’t agree with the specific “20%” approach to funding so that was a bit of a dead horse. Further, we don’t have any money from selling the project yet, just a distant thought that maybe we could think about doing so. So we were worried about the 20% idea 'cos it would mean you probably wouldn’t get any money.

Come back and promise not to flip out again because we’re having trouble finding larps that want our money and support. :wink:

#42

You’re a great big prat, Craig.

Also, a prawn.

(HURF DURF PERSONAL ATTACKS)

#43

Its your choice to go if you want Scott, nobody is asking to leave. If anything I’ve seen a lot of support in quite a few posts and the rest are just trying to work out where you’re coming from and get some specifics.

Try to be a bit more reasonable and stop shooting yourself in the foot with the little rants, threats and name calling and we’ll all get on a lot better.

TBH I think its all a bit moot anyway as, while packaging Mordavia is a nice idea, theres just too much work involved for too little payoff and too many potential problems with IP issues (Your claim and Sierra’s claim)

#44

Laugh away I’m pretty much like you said flogging a dead horse, shite doesn’t flow up hill.

Exquires comment about LARPs not wanting money, while sarcastic is sweet by me, I’m definately not wanting that money these things are better funded from my own pocket where I no longer have to go head to head with people’s that cause more annoyance than needed.

There is no chance I would take up a loan from the Society, mostly because of my principal of not getting myself into debt to anyone, so thus would not of worked, and nor would of signing away my LARP upon my retirement.

The reality of the situation is that you will find another organiser for Christchurch eventually even if much further in the future, but in the mean time you’ve got only one option and he’s not liking your sales pitch or sales team, and has no objection from voicing that.

Never fear, I am not worried, the way I saw the sale was strong enough to fight for it, even if it did end up the sale being worth diddly stuff all, again it is all based on Principal not profit, it has been ran and mistreated beyond what I had hoped for the project which I can only put straight starting from fresh in a LARP free city, I’ve learnt a very valuable lesson here and will be Copy righting my new systems as they become public, further more will not be taking on a Co-Organiser.

If the motion is to go ahead, then I wish those funds donated to Saga, it seems the only way of being 100% clear that I am not out to profit from this.

Also I wish to make crystal clear and reinforce my statement earlier, there is no way even upon a cold day in the underworld that I will loan my kit to NZLARPS, I do not believe it to be 100% democratic without internal influence from set members.

#45

That’s not how NZLARPS funding works. If your project makes a loss, the society absorbs the loss. There is no personal risk to the organiser, no interest… it’s not really a loan, it’s funding.

That’s not what I suggested - I was only suggesting that the gear specifically funded by NZLARPS could eventually revert to the society. Not your larp, not any other gear you’ve made with your own funding, not anything else at all.

While I realise you’re really fed up with me, could you answer one thing more: if the society voted to gift you the Mordavia website and some gear that might be useful like scrolls, would you want it and would you use it to run Mordavia larps? That’s the direction I’m leaning in, but as all things it’ll have to go to the vote.

#46

[quote]I do not believe it to be 100% democratic without internal influence from set members.
[/quote]
As someone who has a paid card-carrying membership to NZLARPS I can state unequivocally that the Society is a democratic entity. Earlier this year we held elections and I ran for the post of Community Officer because I had a different take on where this important role should have headed. I presented my views to a meeting of a majority of Society members who then voted on who they believed was the person best suited to this job. Sadly I was not elected, however numerous people from the new committee encouraged me to attend meetings and participate in the Society.

The Society is reliant on the input of all members to be successful and therefore everyone is entitled to have a say in Society matters. Once a year a committee is democratically elected by Society members and we as members entrust these people to carry out the Society’s aim of supporting LARP. Incidentally I think the committee for this year is fantastic as was the first committee last year.

If you are concerned with the runnings, aims and processes of the Society then a way of further voicing those concerns would be to join up as a member and when elections roll around next year in September, run for a position. I would welcome developments by the Society so the rest of New Zealand has some representation in the Society (not just Auckland) and Christchurch is a great starting point. Change most often comes from within.

All opinions are valid, regardless or not of whether I or anyone else agree with them, we only ask they remain respectful of different views. If anyone on Diatribe or in the Society feels they have problems with having their opinions heard, discussed and considered, then we have a major problem. Fortunately I belive this is far from the case.

#47

[quote=“Malu”][quote]I do not believe it to be 100% democratic without internal influence from set members.
[/quote]
As someone who has a paid card-carrying membership to NZLARPS I can state unequivocally that the Society is a democratic entity. Earlier this year we held elections and I ran for the post of Community Officer because I had a different take on where this important role should have headed. I presented my views to a meeting of a majority of Society members who then voted on who they believed was the person best suited to this job. Sadly I was not elected, however numerous people from the new committee encouraged me to attend meetings and participate in the Society.

The Society is reliant on the input of all members to be successful and therefore everyone is entitled to have a say in Society matters. Once a year a committee is democratically elected by Society members and we as members entrust these people to carry out the Society’s aim of supporting LARP. Incidentally I think the committee for this year is fantastic as was the first committee last year.

If you are concerned with the runnings, aims and processes of the Society then a way of further voicing those concerns would be to join up as a member and when elections roll around next year in September, run for a position. I would welcome developments by the Society so the rest of New Zealand has some representation in the Society (not just Auckland) and Christchurch is a great starting point. Change most often comes from within.

All opinions are valid, regardless or not of whether I or anyone else agree with them, we only ask they remain respectful of different views. If anyone on Diatribe or in the Society feels they have problems with having their opinions heard, discussed and considered, then we have a major problem. Fortunately I belive this is far from the case.[/quote]

Malu says it much better than I. Diatribe should be a place that anyone can express an opinion without the fear of being attacked personally. Opinions may be disected and disagreed with, and in that way the website lives up to its name, but there really is no need to bring anything personal into it.

In fact this very issue was discussed in the last committee meeting.

You should know Scottie, that as much you think Ryan is the puppet master behind us all, he has been the main voice in just gifting the Mordavia website and Mordavia specific gear to you and the Chch scene.

I am as yet undecided whether I think this is a good idea or not, because as much respect as I have for the fact that you started Mordavia with input from other people, the discussion in this thread has put me off a little bit in just trusting that anything we send you will be used for the good of larp in Chch. This is nothing personal against you, but I would feel better about it if the gift didnt go to an individual but rather to a ‘project’ for lack of a better word. This is just my opinion.