Minimum aethetic standards in games

I think there’s two schools of thought coming out of this discussion.

Firstly, there’s the thought that better costume means better immersion, and hence is great all around. Thus, minimum standards in games is completely acceptable. Many of you have also gone into more detail about how one applies a minimum standard, and does so professionally. I think Idiot’s the chief among this school of thought.

Secondly, there’s the thought that high standards of costume turns people away. Certainly, we’ve touched on this already, and we have many things already in place for how to circumvent/combat/defeat this mentality, but the mentality exists nonetheless. I can guarantee you that there are people who do not even think of attending games because they feel intimidated by the wonderful levels of costume.

I’d like to expand on that one a bit more, and I think I know where Jordan is coming from. I personally have felt intimidated by great costumes of other players, often, other more experienced players. I look back at game one of Teonn and sometimes think “Wow, was that what I was wearing?” That’s my personal standards getting better, which is no bad thing. However, if I was not encouraged by other long term players, helped by them, given their time, I might not have been at Teonn at all - (unlikely, because this is me, and I have less self-consciousness than many others, but that is not the point). So here’s to those people who got me into some kit for game one - and because nobody judged me I felt included.

This leads on to where I think Jordan’s going - if minimum standards mean that the atmosphere of the game and its players shifts into a judgmental frame of mind, where the permeating attitude is to sneer and judge people’s costume and kit - then we have a problem. Even if this is a quiet and subtle form of judgment, it still would give the game a nasty feel - hence, 'Ruining the game" as Jordan states.

In summary, I think we as a community, players and GMs, have to be careful, because there already exists an intimidation factor in many of our larps, long term or one off, and we need to be aware of it, regardless of our thoughts on minimum costume standards.

Actually, for me its all about GMs running the game they want to run. And if this means running a game that turns off or intimidates some people, well, tough. I make no apologies for running the sorts of games I run, and I don’t expect them from other GMs.

Games are only “ruined” by this if it causes them to fail to get enough players (which is the market deciding). Some players being excluded from the potential player pool isn’t actually a problem from a GM’s POV, unless it shrinks it so far that the game is unviable (see above).[/quote]

I’m not talking ruining the games for the GM, I’m talking ruining the games for individuals. I don’t think we should have an attitude of “Meh? My standard is up to scratch so I don’t really care if people are being declined because they can’t afford to get theirs up to scratch”.[/quote]You seem to be using the word ‘ruined’ a lot. Thing is, there’s a wide range of costuming going on at most games I go to - really high end impressive kit from the people who like going to town on their costumes, a big middle ground of people who are making some effort, and a few whose costuming isn’t great - maybe they didn’t have much time to prepare, maybe they just really don’t care about what they look like and don’t want to be bothered. I can’t ever remember someone who likes being at the high end telling off other people in the game for letting them down in their costuming, not ever. I can remember, and this happens frequently, people drawing on community resources to get kit together, sometimes right at the last minute, and being met with a lot of generosity.

But about that phrase you used, that reads like you’re not particularly fussed about ‘ruining’ games for GMs? Even a small larp has an enormous number of unpaid hours going into producing it, and not just fun creative hours, but a lot of time spent doing boring administrative stuff (and this is a shout out to the people who put their time into committees and gear stores and all the other necessary tasks who don’t even get the clap at the end of the game.) It doesn’t actually take a lot of effort to Not Suck at a costume - if you’re in doubt, get together an outfit that’s dark and neutral and not too obviously modern and accessorise over the top. Or borrow stuff from the very large number of friendly people in the community. Or go to modern day games that are easy to costume; or have a conversation with the GM about what you can and can’t manage and what kind of character you should play given your time and resource availability. But as a game writer and organiser, it means a lot to me when people show that they respect the work I’ve put into running an entertainment for them - making a reasonable effort to fit into the costuming guidelines doesn’t strike me as that big a deal in the circumstances. Y’know?

[quote=“IdiotSavant”]
Actually, for me its all about GMs running the game they want to run. And if this means running a game that turns off or intimidates some people, well, tough. I make no apologies for running the sorts of games I run, and I don’t expect them from other GMs.[/quote]

So noted. I still think that places you in the ‘minimum standards are good’ camp - and please note in turn that I don’t think you’re wrong to be so. Especially since you’ve already shared with us how you’d go about that.

Yes, exactly this. You feel encouraged by the effort others go to, because it validates your own efforts. This is a two way thing - if the players know you appreciate their effort, they will feel validated about the efforts they’ve put in.

Both of your examples tie nicely in with what I think the big issue behind this topic is: atmosphere. The spirit behind the game. Stephanie illustrates how we are keeping a positive spirit, and Idiot’s said how we can keep it while still introducing minimum costuming standards.

The moment that we lose the positive, friendly, and welcoming atmosphere in a game is the moment we have a serious problem.

I voted Yes for a minimum,

I know my costumes generally aren’t up to scratch, however, a minimum standard doesn’t have to be elaborate. Apart from modernish games, or wild west ones, Jeans / white sneakers are pretty much a no no for fantasy/medieval LARPs, thats a good level of minimum requirement.

Biggest thing about LARP is how helpful & friendly everyone is, even if its in their own way. I’d rather have someone tell me to go find some black shoes, pants & shirt, before the game, than turn up and have people annoyed at me for not putting in the effort to dress accordingly. SO many people are happy to help out, you just need to ask.

I voted yes. I think it’s just fine to have differing costume requirements for games, just as we have different genres and differing maturity levels for games.

Do I think all games should have totally accurate era costuming and only realistic materials? No, not at all, and I think the ‘entry level’ for our BIG larps should be low, because that’s where you want to appeal to the greatest number of people and attract new players. I think having minimum standards actually helps new players. Not knowing what’s expected of you is a lot scarier than going in knowing that white sneakers (thanks Chris, that’s a pet peeve of mine :smiley: ) and hoodies are not acceptable, but black shoes and pants are ok, and a tunic is easy to find/make/borrow/buy depending on budget.

I do think a smaller game with strict costuming standards would appeal to a certain subset of larpers, and I think that’s okay, even though at the moment I’d be one of the ones ‘excluded’ from …an accurate Renaissance larp, for example. I think we have enough choice these days that people will gravitate to what suits them best, both in game style and financial resources.

By the way, does anyone else find that good costume shoes are the biggest PITA to find?

Yes! It’s not just that shoes that look the part are often not built for tramping around in the outdoors, it’s that I have bad feet, and stuff that seems OK in the shop turns out not to be after a couple of hours. Am very sorry about this, GMs.

Ditto on shoes. There are so many that look awesome online but I don’t dare buy shoes without trying them on first.

One day a bunch of enthusiastic people would get together and create a “Helpful Kiwi LARP Costuming Guide”. It will have different chapters for different kinds of games (Steampunk, Medieval, Fantasy, 1920s, Futuristic) with little sub-chapters such as “this is what you can look for in op shops and $2 shops”, “this is number of Simplicity pattern you can use to make your own dress”, “this is a website from where you can buy good stuff for the theme”, as well as a suggested list of good op shops (geographically - Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington) and suggested list of fabric shops (again geographically).

… untill this happens - this discussion goes on.

Yup yup yup :smiley:

But I physically can’t afford to costume up to standard, so what am I supposed to do?

Also I feel as though I have been misunderstood. I don’t think some one should be able to turn up to a high fantasy game in jandles, singlet and shorts and participate when they obviously know the setting.

But then, if this is the level of ‘minimum’ you are working with, then having an actual rule is unnecessary. It simply goes without saying.

And good for both of you for being so passionate about running and organising your games, I’m sure you will get the players you need for them and the aesthetic level you require - for YOUR games.

And of course, this comes down to a majority vote thing, and I am a mere and lowly pleb player, so what does it matter what I think.

Perhaps, you have been misunderstood, Jordan. But I haven’t seen anything wrong about Kaon’s costume… Admittedly that’s the only game I’ve played in with you, and that might not be what you are referring to.

It unfortunately doesn’t go without saying that you don’t turn up to a medieval/fantasy larp in shorts and a t-shirt, I’ve seen it happen. I don’t think anyone wants to set the minimum standard, if there is one, to the level of the costume junkies with several changes and hundreds of hours and dollars worth of kit. That would hardly be fair and i would totally agree with you.

But as an example of standards, I believe several years ago, grey wool knitted “chainmail” was the done thing, and i think i am glad we don’t do that anymore even if the cost of armour means ill never be playing a knight.

I still owe 200$ for Kaons gear that I use, but I was lucky enough to have amazing people like Jared and Jackie pitch in and help out.

Although, the pants and shoes I used in the most recent game (due to my other ones Jackie made being broken) made me feel like I was not up to scratch, but I really didn’t have the money to do anything about it.

But new games and one off games I would be completely screwed for at the moment. Especially one off games, I don’t have the wardrobe for them.

Where I’m coming from is I don’t think it should be a rule, but rather a friendly recommendation.

This is why I disagree.

If you were new showed up and got told to bugger off because your shoes weren’t up to scratch that would be a pretty negative experience. Getting a new person to their first game is the biggest hurdle, once they go they are either hooked or know it is not for them. Placing a rule that about costuming would be fairly off putting.

Guidelines would work just as well without risking coming off as dicks to newbies.

Just a question, have we had a game yet where minimum costuming has been a rule, or where that has been enforced?

I know there are some one offs or some smaller specific games where they have advertised high costuming. Something like the Black Hart of Camelot comes to mind. But then I know when that game was run in Wellington there was a lot of gear loaned around people. But I haven’t heard of anyone told to leave because they didn’t have enough costume in any game.

[quote=“Helikaon”]But I physically can’t afford to costume up to standard, so what am I supposed to do?

Also I feel as though I have been misunderstood. I don’t think some one should be able to turn up to a high fantasy game in jandles, singlet and shorts and participate when they obviously know the setting.

But then, if this is the level of ‘minimum’ you are working with, then having an actual rule is unnecessary. It simply goes without saying.

And good for both of you for being so passionate about running and organising your games, I’m sure you will get the players you need for them and the aesthetic level you require - for YOUR games.

And of course, this comes down to a majority vote thing, and I am a mere and lowly pleb player, so what does it matter what I think.[/quote]

Is this a feeling from being intimidated by others costumes, or are other players/GMs comment on these things. While I would like to encourage new players, and there for not set the bar to high (specially for the big games) I also wouldn’t want the community to discourage people who do want to put time and effort into costuming… for some of us that is all part of the fun. I personally think that Teonn has been great for encouraging and fostering great gear standards, and I wasn’t disappointed by anyone’s costume, even the ones that weren’t the most elaborate.

I think the thing to remember is we are a community, we want everyone to have a good time, so we are willing to pitch in an help if it is needed.

This is why I disagree.

If you were new showed up and got told to bugger off because your shoes weren’t up to scratch that would be a pretty negative experience. Getting a new person to their first game is the biggest hurdle, once they go they are either hooked or know it is not for them. Placing a rule that about costuming would be fairly off putting.

Guidelines would work just as well without risking coming off as dicks to newbies.[/quote]

I have never heard of someone being turned away because of this, has anyone heard of this happening?

This is a great idea, perhaps a future project for NZLARPS to add to our how to guides :slight_smile:

One of the ideas for the how to guide articles that they could be pulled together into larger publications later.

It’s like “How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.”

One of the ideas for the how to guide articles that they could be pulled together into larger publications later.

It’s like “How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.”[/quote]

Indeed… I’m not say immediately, just at perhaps some point some could be created around costumes… even a collation of links, like I mad a cloak from this site that gave me a really easy pattern. I know we have threads on diatribe like that, but maybe a special on for newbies?

Just throwing in here -

Minimum aesthetic guidelines are good. Requirements are OK if targeted correctly.

Either way they need back up and support from the community.

Conversely, I am happy with inclusion of statements such as:

Please make all efforts to wear suitably fitting clothing for this game, please no blue jeans or overtly modern shoes. If you have costume issues please contact X, members of the nzlarps community are happy to lend costume items for new players. Simple items like cloth wraps can disguise modern footwear.

Or something similar.