I’d justwanted to say I was the person to mention this and it was in the context of “AWESOME, it felt so real I keep having bad dreams about X thing that happens in LARP happening to me” I love It!! for me this is good I often dream about my char’s after good LARPS… sometime for months afterwards…
I don’t think any extra warnings were needed, I got exactly what I expected and in reality was much softer than what I expected…
I agree with Anna, I have not found the larping community to be big on peer pressuring, and I would hope that all participants were mature enough to look after their own mental wellbeing.
Perhaps peer pressure and its connotations was the wrong phrase to use. But if an experienced roleplayer such as in the quote, presumably in a group of people she mostly knows, can feel this, I wonder what sort of chance does it give newcomers to stand up for what they would really rather not do.
I wasn’t specifically proposing an extra layer of logistical burden, I assume that only a handful of people would have issues that would need consideration. I thought that by explicitly raising those potential trigger points that people might not normally be aware was going to happen in the game, that they can have the time to make a decision about if they’re up for it, rather than having the decision thrust upon them in the middle of a chaotic crew room when there are players outside clamouring for attention NOW. Perhaps the standard ‘time-out’ option given to newcomers is enough, as I said, I haven’t crewed for a while, so don’t know what’s said these days.
The only issue with that (and I should note I fundementally agree with it) is that it covers perfectly, long time LARPers and people with strong self-will (no shortage of those). Unfortunalty there are a number of folk who don’t fit those types; those who are new to LARPing and either don’t know the Time Out calls or are a bit nervous about using them when no-one else is; those who don’t have the maturity or experience to recognise when things might be an issue; or those who are too shy to say they have an issue.
LARPers in general do not appear to directly presure people but in LARPing well and confidently it exurts a pressure on new players to act like the experienced players. If the experienced players leap into dark and unpleasent themes then presumable as a new player I should too.
It is always hard with an established group to remember what it is to be new, things you take for granted are not as simple as they seem and what works for experienced player might need a bit of tweaking to work for the newbies.
As regards new players.
Indeed. Which is where it’s essential to specifically “give permission” for a player to back out of an uncomfortable situation.
I am minded of an incident at the last Teonn, where Tigger as an arrogant god type laid a massive kiss on Anna. And a new player was heard to ask, with some trepdation, if this was likely to happen to them. The answer was of course no in that Tigger and Anna already have a relationship.
But it strikes me that at the pre-game briefing it is worth mentioning these things again briefly.
I do also wonder if it’s useful to put a reminder up in the crew room that opt out is always an option. No questions asked.
[quote=“joker”]But it strikes me that at the pre-game briefing it is worth mentioning these things again briefly.
I do also wonder if it’s useful to put a reminder up in the crew room that opt out is always an option. No questions asked.[/quote]
I agree, and I think that these strategies of awareness and empowerment of new and newish players to manage their own comfort are far more effective long term for the community than putting the unfeasible task of micromanaging triggers and phobias onto the GMs. As much as we joke about it, the GMs aren’t actually gods and they often have a lot of things and needs to manage - this is one we as a community can take responsibility and ownership for.
Quite aside from anything else, it’s good that this kind of discussion can go on without anyone getting upset and taking it personally. I think Nick has already answered for Achaean quite nicely, but one comment caught my attention:
Because I am a classics scholar whose primary GMing for the past decade has been horror in some or ther form. That juxtaposition just amused me. Carry on. 
[quote=“mashugenah”]Quite aside from anything else, it’s good that this kind of discussion can go on without anyone getting upset and taking it personally. I think Nick has already answered for Achaean quite nicely, but one comment caught my attention:
Because I am a classics scholar whose primary GMing for the past decade has been horror in some or ther form. That juxtaposition just amused me. Carry on. [/quote]
Woah. First post Mash? Well done. Carry on.
Also:
This.
[quote=“Adrexia”]
Though, Orpheus is one of my favourite myths and any retelling that has him killing his father and marrying his mother might be going a bit far. 
[/quote]
That was Oedipus 
Also i think i’m leaning towards the whole ‘it is the larpers own responsibility for their own mental stability and well being’ side of things.
I don’t mean to sound mean (whoa cool accidental word play), but if you struggle with some things that have been mentioned, then it is best for you personally to stay away from it.
This isn’t to say people aren’t understanding or sympathetic of this, but more that some people are ok with some of the more… edgey… topics and genres of role play, and some would be let down just as much if a game was branded ‘R18’ and came across as PG.
I know i sound like a jerk, but i personally LOVE horror movies, thrilling larps and awkward in character moments. I wouldn’t want to see these removed from LARP entirely, just as a precautionary measure.
I also agree with the whole ‘this game may contain:’ type branding on character sheets and sign ups, so that the player knows what they are risking by entering in to the game and not going to get a shock or surprise when all of a sudden a racist rapist shows up.
Just my 2c worth 
You don’t sound like a jerk at all. It’s perfectly reasonable that what some of us find interesting and intense and cool about larping might be something that completely freaks someone else out. Everyone is different.
I like the way more and more larps have a movie rating type designation on them. Seems like a good way to warn (or entice :mrgreen: ) people whether a particular game would be suitable for them.
Brushes sweat off of brow
I never know who is going to get insulted by what on topics such as these >.<
[quote=“Helikaon”][quote=“Adrexia”]
Though, Orpheus is one of my favourite myths and any retelling that has him killing his father and marrying his mother might be going a bit far. [/quote]
That was Oedipus
[/quote]
Here, have a cookie.
[quote=“Helikaon”]
This isn’t to say people aren’t understanding or sympathetic of this, but more that some people are ok with some of the more… edgey… topics and genres of role play, and some would be let down just as much if a game was branded ‘R18’ and came across as PG.[/quote]
This is a tough one. In larger Larps there will often be plot lines that are R18, but no real way of stopping one plot line from bumping up against another. The only way to be safe is to give the whole thing an R18 rating, and perhaps risk disappointing people who want that stuff (and end up in a G rated or PG plot line). I guess you could always ask…
I’d just like to point out that OSH has nothing to do with this. The O in OSH stands for Occupational so we do not fall under its coverage or requirements. If anyone was damaged by larping then ACC applies and it is essentially no blame system.
To draw a few parallels do movie theatres have the same duty of care to people going to horror movies that end up having nightmares? Should the person get up and leave if it starts getting to much for them? Or do they stay because of the peer-pressure/embarrassment of leaving in front of an audience?
Personally I beleive that GMs should have be, or feel, responsible for individuals comfort factor emotional state during games. I feel that its up to the individual to decided that if they feel uncomfortable with whats happening then to remove themselves.
[quote=“Scotty”]To draw a few parallels do movie theatres have the same duty of care to people going to horror movies that end up having nightmares? [/quote]Another parallel would be a free to air tv broadcaster having a responsibility to keep their content within the timeslot guidelines. There’ve been some cases over the last year or so of TVNZ getting pinged because material in daytime or early evening soap operas got too explicit. If they’d played after 9pm, it would have been all good. And news items have to stick warnings in front if they think the material might bother some viewers - and they have to be more rather than less cautious about that stuff, or they risk a fine.
[quote]Should the person get up and leave if it starts getting to much for them? Or do they stay because of the peer-pressure/embarrassment of leaving in front of an audience?[/quote]In either case, though, that’s an example of a game that failed the player, and from a straight creative point of view, I don’t think anyone who invested their time and creativity into writing a larp wants to have people feeling that way about their game.
Here’s DoL’s FAQ on safety at sporting events:
Under the Health and Safety in Employment Act, employers who organise event, and self-employed event organisers, have a duty to take all practicable steps to ensure the safety of staff, volunteers, participants, and spectators at the event site.
(If you want the legal basis underlying that, I suggest checking out ss 3D, 15 and 17 of the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992. IANAL, but I can fake it sometimes)
Our community clearly accepts this for physical harms. We make people aware of the risks (chiefly “falling over”) and we take steps to mitigate them (safety briefings, weapons checks, making sure people don’t fight in dangerous locations, having a fire plan, having a first aid kit and someone who knows how to use it). The problem is that “harm” includes mental harm as well. So we need to be aware of those risks and take steps to mitigate them as well.
This isn’t about costs or people suing us; its about a legal obligation to run a safe event. Not to mention a moral one. I’d rather not fuck up my friends.
In my opinion there’s three simple ways to deal with this (that are mostly being done now):
Give your game a rating system (similar to movies) and warn people if there are any “disturbing” themes.
Be -very- clear in your pre-game briefings AND emails that TIME OUT can and shoud be used for any situation where you feel some mental/physical risk/discomfort as well as injury - as well as rules clarification. Stress that it’s totally cool to call ’ TIME OUT ’ when you need it. It won’t break the game, everyone does it at one time or another and all players are to respect that call. I think stressing that it’s normal to use this call will help encourage n00bs to use it if needed.
Look out for each-other - whether you’re a GM or player. If someone’s freaking out/upset make sure they’re tended to.
Short of that, I firmly believe players need to do their homework about games as much as they’d look into watching a certain film, picking up a certain book or playing a certain video game.
For Witch-house which definitely falls in this category I wrote the following;
I the undersigned do solemnly swear that I am aware Witch-house is not a normal LARP and contains more contact and mental stress than most games. I agree to accept both physical contact and mental stress as part of the witch-house experience within the boundaries of common sense safety. I give permission to Players, GM’s and crew to push to the boundaries they have defined for the game and I accept these may at times meet or exceed my own boundaries in this regard.
I reserve the right and accept the responsibility to define my own boundaries and to use the options available to me, such as Time-Outs or leaving the situation, in an adult way, ensuring my comfort while minimising the impact on others enjoyment of the game.
I also accept that not all players and crew will be comfortable with the same levels of contact and will do my best to remember and adhere to their limits, erring on the side of caution when in doubt and respecting other rights to ensure their comfort as above.
For smaller games something like this works, I am clearly informing the GM’s what I expect, what they can expect and who is responsible for what.
My point being that this is possible to create and state because at all times the LARP was advertised as an R18game and this becomes a legitimate solution for the game.
There is no way this is a workable solution for a large game or a game with new players but the basic themes are things I think should be advertised a bit more;
The options available to new players and a reminder to more experienced players to respect and help new characters understand and use these options.
The fact that LARPing involves some personal responsibility around comfort, and mental health.
Rating the game clearly and the GM’s sticking to that rating. Don’t advertise as G and then for story purposes slide it to an R18.
Here’s DoL’s FAQ on safety at sporting events:
Under the Health and Safety in Employment Act, employers who organise event, and self-employed event organisers, have a duty to take all practicable steps to ensure the safety of staff, volunteers, participants, and spectators at the event site.
(If you want the legal basis underlying that, I suggest checking out ss 3D, 15 and 17 of the Health and Safety in Employment Act 1992. IANAL, but I can fake it sometimes)
Our community clearly accepts this for physical harms. We make people aware of the risks (chiefly “falling over”) and we take steps to mitigate them (safety briefings, weapons checks, making sure people don’t fight in dangerous locations, having a fire plan, having a first aid kit and someone who knows how to use it). The problem is that “harm” includes mental harm as well. So we need to be aware of those risks and take steps to mitigate them as well.
This isn’t about costs or people suing us; its about a legal obligation to run a safe event. Not to mention a moral one. I’d rather not fuck up my friends.[/quote]
Again, what you’re quoting is from the Health and Safety in Employment Act. Otherwise known as the HSE Act 1992.
Section 1.4 of the HSE Act 1992 states:
The Act imposes duties on a wide range of working relationships in nearly all places of work.
It further defines responsibilites and duties of Employers and Employees.
The HSE Act 1992 does not apply to our unpaid hobby of larping. So, we have no legal obligations under that Act so please stop using it as legal scaremongering and spreading misinformation.
I’m a certified HSE Accident Investigator and Trainer in my company so I know what I’m talking about. If you have any doubts please call the Department of Labour on 04 915 4400
and ask if unpaid hobbies fall under the requirements of the HSE Act.
As far as moral obligations go, thats altogether different. But I have to pop out for a while so will continue later.
KapCon’s legal advice is that we’re covered by the Act, despite everyone being a volunteer and no-one making any money. I doubt larp organisers are in a different legal boat.
I would seek alternate advice. If there’s something about the way KapCon is structured thats causing it to fall within the bounds of the HSE Act then they really should be seeing if they can restructure out of coverage. Otherwise there’s quite a number of requirements around creating & maintaining Hazard Registers, having Certified H&S Reps, running regular H&S meetings and tracking injuries and incidents. Oh, and also paying ACC levies. And if you are covered by the Act and you’re not doing that then theres fairly nasty business and personal penalties for non-compliance.