Intellectual property rights and larp

Community Larp discussion
#1

I want to follow up on something Alista said about royalties on the No Man’s Land forum after describing an idea of his for a larp system, but don’t want to derail that thread.

[quote=“Alista”]Rights
anyone is allowed to use this system in amateur sense as long as they credit me. If used in a professionaly then the author asks for 0.5% of gross income as royalties. [/quote]

While you can surely ask for a royalty, I don’t think there’s a legal basis to expect it.

From what I understand it’s not possible to copyright roleplaying rules. Only the specific wording used to describe them is automatically copyright to the author, not the rules themselves. This is why roleplaying games have always borrowed rules so freely from each other. No borrowing of roleplaying rules has ever been successfully prosecuted in court to my knowledge.

It is possible to patent game rules, but only if they are demonstrably original. And it requires the creator to go through the patent office, it’s not automatic like copyright. No roleplaying rules have been patented successfully as far as I know, the closest is the Magic the Gathering CCG rules patent. I don’t think the rule you wrote up would be patentable, they seem partly inspired by other rules systems I’ve seen.

Personally I’m more than happy to acknowledge sources of inspiration, but I wouldn’t pay royalties to anyone for rules inspirations for a professional product. Royalties get paid for fictional material, brands, and wording, not for mechanics.

In this instance my ethical outlook happens to align with the law. Roleplaying rules all borrow from each other so substantially that it’s incredibly difficult to show no prior art for any rule idea. I think all the unfettered rule borrowing is a good thing, it promotes innovation. I’d be more than happy for people to borrow rules I’ve written, although not the wording unless permission is given.

#2

So if I rewrite the 1st Ed AD&D rules then I can claim them as my own and sell them?

#3

Yes. So long as you’re just using the mechanics and not the original description of them. You couldn’t use the name “Dungeons and Dragons” either, as it is trademarked. But you could rip off the mechanics all you like.

Many early RPGs re-used parts of the D&D mechanics, and rule-borrowing has been the norm throughout the development of RPGs.

A lot of modern roleplaying games bear an uncanny resemblence to the d20 system (the undisputed master of the modern RPG market), without in any way partaking of the d20 license (the free one) let alone paying royalties. The Lord of the Rings roleplaying game comes to mind as bearing a close resemblence to d20, and the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2 resembles the d20 system much more than the old edition did (especially in how combat turns work).

You’re welcome to ask people for whatever you want, I’m just pointing out that you’ve only got legal recourse if someone nicks your text, not your mechanics. Text is automatically copyright, game rules have to be patented. And if the d20 mechanics can’t be patented by a company the size of its owner, Wizards of the Coast (which is owned by the entertainment giant Hasbro) then good luck patenting anything in the RPG industry.

#4

Edit: quote removed.

The funny thing about ideas is that, while they can “cost” something to create (usually time), once you’ve got them they’re an unlimited resource.

Socially, I go beyond thinking that you should be able to share this kind of thing. I believe that it’s your responsibility to share information freely.

That said, I do think credits are a “nice to have” and that it’s polite to acknowledge people that have helped you get to where you are. But this can go too far and credits lists should be limited to people that you genuinely want to thank…

Also, “theft” is really the wrong term here, it implies that the original “owner” doesn’t have it any more. Not the case. At best it’s “copyright infringement” - don’t equate the two, the “theft” term really bugs me every time I pay to go to a movie or buy a DVD and I get a condescending video reminding me that I wouldn’t steal a car.

#5

Who were you quoting there, Craig?

#6

[quote=“Alista”]Rights
anyone is allowed to use this system in amateur sense as long as they credit me. If used in a professionaly then the author asks for 0.5% of gross income as royalties.[/quote]
What about if someone takes a cool idea from your system and incorporates it into their own system. In your opinion, would that still trigger the royalty ?

#7

I quoted an earlier post of Alista’s that it looks like he’s removed. I’ve removed the quotation 'cos it wasn’t pivotal and it looks like he’s changed his mind…

#8

Except that 1st ed AD&D is antiquated and inferior comapred to products available these days.
I’m sure the original writers would get annoyed but the rest of the world wouldn’t care.
hehe :smiling_imp:

Jared

#9

What is the position of NZLarps on the position on ownership and protection of intellectual property, specifically with relation to the creation of a game system?

#10

For nzLARPS projects, the creator(s) own the intellectual property. If, in the distant future, they go commercial and forbid nzLARPS from running games, so be it.

While the game is run as an nzLARPS project all profits and acquired props are retained by nzLARPS to be used to run other games.

In terms of taking inspiration from existing systems, I’m not sure if we have an official position. However, I suspect it may be in line with the position discussed by Ryan in this thread. i.e. you need to make up your own system (or obtain permission to use an existing system), but you can use ideas/mechanics that someone else thought of.

#11

[quote=“Mike Curtis”]
While the game is run as an nzLARPS project all profits and acquired props are retained by nzLARPS to be used to run other games.[/quote]

This is one reason why I for one am not keen for Quest Waikato to ‘join’ NZLARPS. We have our own rules and guidelines around these things, which may not be compatible with the nzLARPS way. shrug

Don’t get me wrong, I think you guys are doing a good thing fostering a cross-genre roleplaying community, but you do seem to be mostly Auckland based, and it is my experience generally that joining Auckland organisations does not usually do much for Hamiton clubs (I am talking beyond the roleplay community here).

This does not mean that I don’t think that we should not maintain a relationship with Auckland organisations, but just that I don’t think it is in our benefit to ‘join’.

Please note that the opinion expressed above is entirely my own and should not be taken as a position statement from QW regarding nzLARPS. :slight_smile:

#12

Note that there are two types of association with NZLARPS.

What Mike was discussing above was being a “Project” of NZLARPs, which means you’re essentially part of the society and running within it. In that instance you are eligable for loan of funding, and profits and gear from your events stay within the society.

But the other sort of association with NZLARPS is to become an “Affiliate”. In that instance you are entirely independant organisation, and your games and gear are of course entirely your own. An Affiliate is a friendly association with a mutually-agreed exhange of benefits of any sort.

In terms of intellectual property, the project application form has a section for it. Project owners define their position - whether they want to maintain ownership or give it to the society.

I reckon it would be cool to have a pool of larp gear available to larpers in Hamilton and other centres to use, and don’t much care whether it comes about through the society or by other means.

While our gear is currently located in Auckland, NZLARPS can loan projects based anywhere in NZ funding. If you need a grand to run a big larp but don’t want to cough it up out of your personal account, NZLARPS can loan it to you if you’re running a project within the society.

#13

Cheers Telpe

We’re Auckland based at the moment just because we are. As soon as we get people on board from, say, Hamilton, then we won’t just be an Auckland thing :wink:

Mike answers the question above for an nzLARPS project. Projects are assumed to be “projects of the incorporated society” - that’s why it takes the risk and keeps the profits.

But there are also “affiliate” groups, which is how Mike and I run our games. These get a bunch of the benefits (gear lending, promotion) but you bear the losses/keep the profits yourself. Other people have to come “through you” to borrow your stuff, which you are responsible for storing. Usually. Affiliations are flexible.

#14

Hey guys, can I ask a slightly off-topic question?
I’ve been watching your discussion for the last two days, and now desperately trying to understand - will there be any troublesome consequences for the ordinary players? Are we, from Auckland, ok to go play in Hamilton? I thought yes, and I actually was planning to try Quest Waikato next time, but just trying to understand how big is the tension here…

#15

I think I can fairly say that the Quest waikato is a bunch of lying, cheating, bipolar, sexually-deviant geeks playing an out of date system that they are enjoy passionatly despite it’s obvious flaws and weaknesses. They are completely deluded about how “cool” there system is.

In other words, they’re exactly the same as the Aucklanders and you’ll fit right in. :smiley:

#16

Ha ha ha
You’re so funny Derek. :laughing:
We down here in Hamilton are all what Derek said and probably worse, except liars, i don’t like being called a liar. EDIT: Or a cheat. Some of us try to play with some virtue.
Quest is what it is of course, flaws, warts and good points.
HOWEVER
Aiwe: All people are welcome to come play Quest in Hamilton. Everyone. Even the guy who thought Alista was actually a girl. I believe the quote was “who’s this bitch alista”. :smiling_imp:
Here at Quest, here in Hamilton, we’re not picky, we’ll take you all in.
Come one come all
Don’t let the petty squabbles that may happen online affect your choice to come see how we do things in Hamilton.
Cheers
Jared

#17

I didn’t even know we were squabbling. :wink:

The discussions here between HLT & AKL are no more heated than those we have between people with different opinions in AKL alone. Speaking for myself, if I seem confrontational it’s only because I’m congenitally inclined that way. No particular biases here.

I’d happily come and play in a Quest game if I was able, just like I went down to Welly to see what they’re doing in larp down there (cool stuff! was the answer). Then again, I’d be going to lots more of the cool-sounding larps running in Auckland too if I could. But balancing with home life means budgetting my game time.

#18

oh dear, I had not meant to introduce any agro here :frowning: .

I am not into Auckland-bashing (except with my sword, of course, and then no more than anyone else). Travellers from Orcland are very welcome at Quest games, and good on you guys who do make the trek. I also have no grief with NZLARPS, as such, and would like to say that to my knowledge Quest Waikato has not yet made a decision on whether or not we are going to join/affiliate with NZLARPS.

#19

Sorry about the lying cheating bit. The post didn’t scan without them…

Aiwe, you probably wouldn’t even notice you weren’t in Auckland if you went to a Quest game.

#20

Alista is a guy??

Looks like I got it wrong as well. But it ends in a vowel! It must be a female name! It…

(insert sounds of retribution)