Gaza

Community
#1

WARNING: Those who don’t like to see politics on this forum, please exit this thread now.

So, I marched down Queen Street on Saturday against the massacre that’s taking place in Gaza. I haven’t been on a march since student days when I protested against user-pays higher education, but the situation in Gaza is really sticking in my craw. So I felt compelled to do something, however unlikely it might be to have an impact.

I’d expect to feel a fair amount of common interest with fellow protesters, but not so much this time. I can’t get down with people chanting “down with Israel”. I’m not against Israel, I just don’t like their government oppressing and slaughtering people. If it was Israelis being slaughtered by a vastly overpowering military opponent, I’d be protesting against that.

There were a number of people waving green flags, the flag of Hamas. I’m not a fan of Hamas. Sure, they’re the elected government of the Palistinian people. But, like the Israeli government, they’re also somewhat indiscriminate killers. I support the Palestinians wanting a homeland, but I’d like to see a peaceful resolution.

Why must the peace movement be tangled up with the “death to Israel” movement? They are unnatural bedfellows. It’s true that Israel, with the backing of the US, has had an awful impact on the region. But fundamentally, Israelis are people with equal rights to a peaceful and prosperous homeland, just like the Palestinian people. As a person who’d like to see them sharing the land peacefully, I don’t want to be associated with people who advocate militant resistance, let alone the destruction of Israel. Can’t the peace movement protest against Israel’s actions without seeming to support Hamas?

#2

The problem with public protests is that you can’t control who turns up or what they’ll do/say. Even if the organisers are fully peaceful, it’s likely that the pro-violence types will attempt to use the protest as a platform for their rhetoric.

Back in '95, I spent many a Tuesday evening outside the French Embassy in London protesting against the Mururoa nuclear tests. For some reason, the Socialist Workers turned up as well. They were very organised, and handed anti-test placards. More than a few people accepted the placards and then ripped off the “Socialist Worker” banner to distance themselves.

You could always try signing the Avaaz web-petition, their messages seem to be getting through, although with Israel it’s unlikely to have much effect on their government.

One of worst feature of this whole sorry situtation is that mainstream media’s inability to challenge Israel’s mendacious propaganda, which means that our society has tacitly - yet in a small but consistent way - supported the carnage by not challenging Israel’s lies. Some unchallenged lies:

  • Hamas broke the ceasefire. In reality it was Israel, when they invaded Gaza on the very same day as the US Presidential election.
  • Hamas is to blame for civilian casualities because they use them as “human shields”. Killing civilians because militants are (or, more likely, might) be in their midst is actually against the Geneva Convention. And this morning the latest propaganda is that Hamas are using hospitals as their bases…the implications are chilling.
  • The IDF (Israel Defence Force) never purposefully attacks civilians. This is, again, utter bullshit, with many independently documented examples of when they do exactly that.
#3

seriously hate this war right now. makes me feel rather small and insignificant, i hope someone famous does something to stop it.

#4

Yeah, there was a Communist Party (or something) representative trying to sign people up on Saturday. And a Falun Gong protest nearby. I guess it’s protester cross-marketing.

Thanks, done.

Absolutely. The more I learn about the Israeli-Palestinian situation, the more irritating western media coverage becomes. It’s not just the influence of Israel’s lying PR machine that grates, it’s the underlying media assumption that Israel, as an ally of the US, must surely be more civilised and moral than its obviously “terrorist” enemies, and that its explanations can be trusted. Does the media give such respect to Robert Mugabe’s explanations of why he kills people? No.

How is it possible that not a single western media outlet has called this a massacre, when it so obviously is? The only explanation I can conceive is that the western media has an “us and them” mentality in relation to Israel and Palestine. And “we” don’t commit massacres - only “they” do that. So it can’t be a massacre. It must be an “operation” or an “incursion” or some other surgical-sounding procedure. My bullshit-o-meter has been pinging violently for three weeks now.

I agree. Paris Hilton, we demand you stop this war!

#5

I had numerous invites to this protest by email and Facebook. I didn’t end up going because I really didn’t see what good it would do, and I realised there’d be a lot of Hamas supporters. I agree with what Ryan, Mike, and Zannii have said.
Two interesting things I read in relation to this recently: apparently Israel is one of the least safe places in the world for Jews, and there are more Jews in New York City alone than in Israel.

#6

There are alot of reasons why the situation in Gaza is how it is and there are alot of reasons why it should stay as it is.

The situation was created by the crusades as such it all flows from the Church interfearing with an area they knew little about. The more people that die there the more blaim I feel should be placed upon the monotheistic religions that stem from the origional set. When you claim to have a good 40% of the worlds population under your banner there is very little you can’t achieve if you try. The simple fact is despite all the rhetyric none of them actually care about any one out side their own circle.

Religion is by definition selfish.

So what can we do?

Very little. The only way a fight that has been going on for generations is going to be resolved is by inserting a far more powerful military force into the area to neutralise both zones. Drop the boarder and do what was always intended by at least some of the previous kings. Open the area for all to both live and worship in peace. Does the ends justify the means? Somtimes unfortunatly yes.

If you really want to help this situation resolve I suggest you send an e-mail to as many UN delegates as you can informing them of pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

The us military claims it is ineffective however they really don’t want to shell out $6000 US each time one of the vests gets hit. So a human life is not worth $6k to them apparently…

A UN ‘Peacekeepers’ division equiped with this and an aray of non lethal equipment could end the situation in under a month.

Think about it.

Now do the right thing.

#7

The fundamental reason is the Israelis ethnically cleansed Palestine in 1948, and the refugees ended up in Gaza - the worlds largest prison. The Israeli government does not want the Palestinians to live in anything other that abject poverty, and regularly destroy any efforts that are made to improve the situation (such as the decade long economic blockade). This current conflict is the latest in over 40 years of Israeli agression during their illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.

Are you implying that this situation is OK and that it should stay as it is, or are you saying that it is intractable and unlikely to change ?

The issue is not about religion, it’s about the Israeli government being given carte blanch to do whatever the hell they want - irrespective of the applicable international law - by the USA and the UK. It’s simply vile.

[quote=“Xcerus”]So what can we do?

Very little. [/quote]
That’s exactly what they used to say about apartheid-era South Africa, but international sanctions did the trick in the end. The fundamental shift needs to happen in the USA, but even with Obama in power I do not think the political will exists to reign in the most dangerous rogue state in the Middle East - Israeli, let’s not forget, has had nuclear weapons for decades.

All major progressive victories in recent history started only a few dedicated volunteers who did their research and spread the word, argued the points, and stood their ground. And that’s what we need to do in the first instance, to challenge the propaganda whenever you hear it parroted by someone you know. Our media have really let us (and the Palestinians) down with respect to Israeli aggression.

Make no bones about it, I can’t stand political violence, and the Hamas militants should be put on trial for the criminals they are - as should members of the IDF who commit atrocities and other crimes.

But it is quite clear to me that Israel faces no consequences for their actions, and this emboldens them to ever more agressive acts.

The Independent in the UK has Robert Fisk, who has lived in Beirut for over 30 years and speaks fluent Arabic. He is one of the few journalists who has the depth of knowledge to actually provide an historical context to the current exigencies in the Middle East.

The Zionist/Pro-Israel lobby is very organised and very powerful. Criticism of Israel is often (IMO mendaciously) interpreted as anti-Sematism. He’s an article about it by Fisk, and here’s a recent example from our own media: in 2003, award-winning cartoonist Malcom Evans was fired from the Herald for a cartoon likening the occupation of Gaza to apartheid. Follow the link and judge for yourself.

#8

Um Mike, the UN gave Israel Gaza…

Saying it was stolen is like saying the same of Berlin and the wall…

#9

[quote=“Xcerus”]Um Mike, the UN gave Israel Gaza…

Saying it was stolen is like saying the same of Berlin and the wall…[/quote]

Ah, but was it the UN’s to give?

War is a terrible thing and the only people who really win out of it are the ones who sell the guns. U.S, Russia, and France and then Israel are the largest military suppliers in the world. Sadly, because this is a large source of revenue for the countries, it also causes a pro-war sentiment in the countries that manufacture the guns.

#10

Actually it was the UK’s to give and they gave it to the UN who then (instead of keeping it neutral) gave it to Israel.

Also - in the same sence who had the right to split Germany like that after world war 2?

War is not theft if it was then very few nations in the world would actually own their land…

#11

I was Istanbul at the time of the big protest. I didn’t so much attend as I went to look at the town square and it was full of Turks waving Palestine and Hamas flags. I hung around a bit, but couldn’t follow what the Mullah was saying because I don’t speak Turkish. Istanbul is really nice, though. I recommend it but don’t go for kebab. There’s more to Turkey than that. Besides, you get way better ones just on Queen Street. There’s a really weird thing there where they put fries in the kebab with the meat and vegetables. They love that. Just imagine if that tasted as good as it sounds. It doesn’t; it tastes like shit.

Anyway…

Three out of the four being permanent Security Council members. It’s amusing how almost everything just cries out to the UN to save us anytime anything remotely violent happens despite repeated demonstrations that it’s corrupt and ineffective. The United Nations can’t and won’t do shit because it’s set up in the interests of countries that benefit the most from war.

International is bullshit as well. The occupation of Gaza is illegal in mostly the same way it’s illegal to smoke marijuana in Holland. It’s Victor’s Justice. It’s only enforced by the stronger nations against the weaker and/or losing Nations.

The only real solution is just let it be and let them both fight it out. Obviously no one is going to do that because we all want to look like we care about these people. We all know that the only thing that will come out this whole operation is another ceasefire agreement, then we’ll forget about it until the next Israel-Palestine Biannual Let’s All Kill Each Other Extravaganza.

To everyone calling for peace, stability and for Jews and Muslims to learn to live with each other and be friends: It’s not going to ever happen. The only proof we need of that is that both sides pretty much keep saying that to TV cameras. They word it a bit differently, of course, but the intention is there.

Israel goes after militants (Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, etc), killing civilians that get in the way. This makes people angry so they join militant groups and attack Israelis. Israel goes after militants and et-fucking-cetera.

Now all go back to focusing on something important like the government banning high-pressure showers or lightbulbs or whatever it is right now.

#12

I agree with Mike. Israel is allowed to continue its oppression of the Palestinians largely because they have the support of the USA. The backing of the world’s only superpower, which also has the most powerful international media influence, is all Israel needs to keep up the pretense that they are the victims rather than the oppressors and to stop the international community acting.

What’s needed is for the people of the USA to come to a better understanding of the situation. That’s hard, because of 1) the pro-Israel lobby and voters 2) The weird christians who think Jerusalem needs to be in Jewish hands for the end days to arrive, and 3) the anti-muslim sentiment.

Alternatively, if USA lost its overwhelming international influence then other nations could act. Possibly (given the rise of Asia) this might happen before people’s attitude change.

In principal I agree that the most just solution would be a single state for Palestinians, Jews, and the other people in the land. However, there are some extreme racists, nationalists, and religious nutters in both groups who would make it a nightmare. So the two-state solution is a more viable solution now, with a possible merge in a few generations time when the extremists hopefully have had less fuel for their fire.

#13

Quite incorrect.

The UN Partion Plan for Palestine quite clearly did not give Gaza or the West Bank (and other areas now in Israeli control such as East Jerusalem) to Isreal. That’s why they are called the Occupied Territories.As an aside, due to the warped nature of the US media, most Americans currently believe the the Occupied Territories are being occupied by Palestinians !

Many Arabs were still living in the Jewish partition, however. And the majority of these were ethnically cleansed (which is now a crime against humanity, and, incidently, what the Nazi holocaust was all about) by Israeli death squads, with many of the refugees force to move to either the West Bank or Gaza.

Are you are saying the Israel had a right to ethnically cleanse their Arab citizens ?

#14

Here’s an article describing the perspective of most Israelis:

iht.com/articles/2009/01/12/ … israel.php

There are two interesting points to note:

  1. There is no mention of whether Israel has oppressed Palestinians, first cleansing them from their own lands and then preventing them from being prosperous in the lands that they’ve been exiled to. With this massive blind-spot for their own culpability in creating the current situation, it’s hardly surprising that the Israelis can’t see the big picture and the immorality of their actions within it.

  2. The editor of The Jerusalem Post is quoted as saying “The most ethical moral imperative is for Israel to prevail in this conflict over an immoral Islamist philosophy.” This is even more worrying. If the editor of a newspaper thinks his country is justified in doing anything because they are fighting “Evil Islam”, how widespread must such bigoted views be in Israel at large? This is a war between bigoted religious fanatics on both sides, as well as a typical war for land and resources.

There needs to be a re-orientation of the international influence on this problem. The western world is capable of taking a neutral, humanitarian view of the situation (including the Israeli perspective), but the powerful and biased influence of the US is getting in the way, turning it into a polarised debate where no-one can see the other side’s perspective.

#15

No - ethnic clensing is to be reserved for Chavs.

I need to look into this more I was under the impression it was given to them and that only after was there outcry and it was declaired occupied.

Will be back with resurch :stuck_out_tongue: (have no prob with being proven wrong its just not what I was informed of)

#16

The current border of Israel (the one which excludes the West Bank and Gaza) is the Green Line, established between Israel and the neighbouring Arab states during the 1949 armistice that ended the 1948 war. This chain off events is widely accepted to have been sparked off by the Arab states rejection of the UNs Partition Plan (they also voted unanimously against it). This plan would have created and Arab AND a Jewish state. Following the Jewish declaration of independence, the surrounding Arab countries simultanously attacked. The Green Line was settled on as the accepted border of Israel by all parties.

"Although some Jews criticized aspects of the plan, the resolution was welcomed by most of the Jewish population.[citation needed] The Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan as “the indispensable minimum,”[29] glad as they were with the international recognition, but sorry that they didn’t get more.[30]

Arguing that the partition plan was unfair to the Arabs with regard to the population balance at that time, the representatives of the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab League firmly opposed the UN action and even rejected its authority to involve itself in the entire matter.[31] They upheld “that the rule of Palestine should revert to its inhabitants, in accordance with the provisions of […] the Charter of the United Nations.”[32] According to Article 73b of the Charter, the UN should develop self-government of the peoples in a territory under its administration."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab- … ition_Plan

Frankly, the UN Partition Plan was rejected and violated within days of the resolution passing.

Let’s just not talk about the British Mandate, because the whole thing was fucked up. I think the British have screwed over just about every country they were ever in charge of…

As for the Palestinian refugee issue, some tidbits I have come across (if anyone’s interested, I also have a full article written by Palestinian woman who grew up in Gaza, and is the author of “Now They Call Me Infidel”):

In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating
that "Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will
not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be
regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut
al Massa, July 15, 1957)."
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … ugees.html

The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting
citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) “to avoid
dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their
homeland”.
arabnews.com/?page=1&section … =10&y=2004

In 1965 Egypt and other members of the Arab League signed the Casablanca
Protocol. The Protocol called upon Arab governments to grant Palestinians
residence permits, the right to work and the right to travel on a par with
national citizens, while at the same time emphasizing the importance of
preserving Palestinian identity and maintaining the refugee status of
Palestinians residing in host countries. On paper, at least, the members of
the Arab League expressed their solidarity with and sympathy for
Palestinians and their rights. On a practical level, however, the Casablanca
Protocol was not upheld.
forcedmigration.org/guides/fmo028/fmo028.pdf

Syrian Prime Minister, Khalid al-Azm, wrote in his 1973 memoirs:
Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees […] while
it is we who made them leave. […] We brought disaster upon […] Arab
refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.
[…] We have rendered them dispossessed. […] We have accustomed them to
begging. […] We have participated in lowering their moral and social
level. […] Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson,
and throwing bombs upon […] men, women and children-all this in the
service of political purposes.

In Egypt - In 1977 Sadat made the journey to Israel to seek a permanent
peace agreement. Israel and Egypt signed the Camp David Accords for Peace. A
year later, El-Sibai, the Minister of Culture, was killed in Cyprus by the
Palestinian faction group Abu Nidal El Banna in close coordination with
Iraqi intelligence. By killing Sabai, Iraq, which was taking the lead in
ostracizing Egypt for its contacts with Israel, aimed to punish Sadat and
give him a taste of what he too might expect (Seale 1992).
Since Abu Nidal was Palestinian, Palestinians in Egypt paid the price. On 28
February 1978 a ministerial decision was announced: all processes by which
Palestinians were being treated as nationals would be reconsidered. In 1978
two administrative regulations, no. 47 and no. 48,were issued by Sadat: all
regulations treating Palestinians as nationals were to be annulled.
Ministries quickly applied the new rules.
forcedmigration.org/guides/fmo028/fmo028.pdf

In Lebanon they face restrictions in the labour market, which contribute to
high levels of unemployment, low wages and poor working conditions. Until
2005, more than 70 jobs were barred to Palestinians - around 20 still are.
amnesty.org/en/library/asset … 80102007en
.html

An estimated 19,000 Palestinians have fled Iraq since 2003, leaving about
15,000 behind, according to the United Nations. About 350 Palestinians are
now stranded in a desolate refugee camp in a no man’s land at the Al Tanf
border crossing into Syria. For more than six months they have been denied
entry into Syria, and they refuse to return to Iraq. An additional 80
Palestinians are stuck on the Iraqi side of the line. Similar makeshift
settlements have cropped up along the border with Jordan.
“Killings, threats, intimidations and kidnappings are becoming the norm for
Palestinians in Iraq,” the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq said in a report
this month. "Many of these actions are reportedly carried out by the
militias wearing police or special forces uniform[s]."
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 2007012401
888_pf.html

Kuwait severed ties with PLO as a result of the Gulf War fall-out and cut
its financial backing.
After Saddam Hussein was driven out, the emirate expelled some 400,000
Palestinians, although a few thousand stayed or have since returned.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4089961.stm

Jordan is the only Arab country which uniformly gave citizenship rights to
Palestinian refugees present on its soil.

I’m not trying to spread propaganda, which is why I’ve included sources for as much as I can. Make of those what you will (I can’t guarantee that wikipedia is ironclad, but they also have their sources so feel free to investigate). Just bringing in another side of the argument that people may not be aware of or may be interested in debating. I also agree that the peace movement should not be linked with the ‘death to Israel’ movement. As an Israeli and a Jew, I identify with one but very much reject the other (I’ll let you guess which is which:P ). This is actually quite rare for me - I don’t usually get involved in political discussions for precisely that reason. It can wind up being quite an unpleasant experience.
In summary (sort of): the history of the region is confusing and very murky - neither side comes out smelling of roses.

#17

Cool I will take all the stuff we gave you away next time I am nearby then. (Say bye bye to your house and anything that basically isn’t a mud hut).

#18

Cool I will take all the stuff we gave you away next time I am nearby then. (Say bye bye to your house and anything that basically isn’t a mud hut).[/quote]
Yeah, because like the Thais and the Japanese, we needed to be colonised in order to adopt new technology. :unamused:

#19

No Rectangulars - can your post above be summarised as “the Arabs have treated the Palestinians badly, too”?

That’s probably true, but how is it relevant to the original mistreatment of the Palestinians by Israel? If they hadn’t been dispossessed in the first place, they wouldn’t be refugees in need of Arab aid.

Absolutely. But, also in summary: despite all the varied injustices and failed deals of the past, it is clear that the current situation is a militarily and politically powerful Israel oppressing destitute Palestinians, with the backing of the United States. This is a clear present-day injustice that must be remedied.

#20

I think this is largely a result of the IDF’s propaganda machine.

A feature of the current conflict is how the IDF are handling the media. I listened to fascinating BBC report on Worldwatch on National Radio last night.

Domestic support for the 2006 attacks on Lebannon declined over time because the Israeli public were getting all the information. There was unrestricted access for journalists (albiet, at quite some risk), and soldiers were using phonecams to record and transmit war scenes. The public could judge for themselves.

This time, the IDF have banned soldiers from using phones, and have banned all journalists from entering Gaza. All Gaza reporting is by journalists who are currently in Gaza (and I’m not sure if foreign journalists were allowed to stay in Gaza), and they don’t have access to the same media channels as the international or domestic journalists. When retired army generals are seconded for media interviews, the army now has a policy of briefing them first so they stay on message.

As a result, the local media now only cover the Israeli side of the conflict, such as the results of Hamas rocket attacks. There is no coverage of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

A related aspect is an oft-repeated meme that I have encountered a number of times: that all of Israel’s neighbours want to destroy Israel, so they are justified in absolutely any kind of military action because otherwise they will be destroyed. i.e. TINA (There Is No Alternative).

This is a powerful meme, not only because it plays on fear (a tactic used by the right wing politicians in the US for decades now), but also because it provides infinite self-justification for any atrocity they can think up.

And these guys have nuclear weapons…