Firearm combat rules

Community Larp discussion
#1

What are people’s thoughts on some fairly generic combat rule for modern or futuristic larps that involve more firearms than melee?

Carl and I were discussing it over the in the Stargate thread. I think it’s a general issue that hasn’t been discussed much in NZ. If we have some kind of fairly adaptable system then various games using firearms could build on it.

I’m assuming here that the firearms will either throw actual projectiles (e.g. airguns), or have a hit detectio system (e.g. lasertag), not cap guns or laser tag. So whether you get hit or not is already taken care of. And I’m not asking about gun safety, that’s being discussed elsewhere.

That leaves what happens when you get hit, medical aid, armour, etc.

Thoughts?

#2

first of all make a distincton between fire arms (slug throwers) and non firearms (beam guns)

for instance in the stargate universe the Beam throwers of the Jaffar would have different fire effects than the Slug throwers of the SGC.

and in things like Star trek there are lethal and non lethal effects.

#3

This conversation may be the only premature one on the board. I think it’s weapon dependant. If we opt for laser weapons, combat can be computer-controlled, in which case there’d be no possible arguments. If we use confetti-firing potato cannons or ping pong balls, any hit should be enough. If we use long range soft ball bearings with high accuracy then I think we can expect reactions to be equally accurate.

So watch this space, and let’s keep considering gameplay ramifications as we consider gun combat alternatives.

#4

i really dont like the one hit and your down concept, i dont think it is realistic and makes the combat to simplistic.

a person hit with a full metal jacket bullet will keep going, which is why the police use hollow points or frangible bullets, more stopping power.

a sword will stop you dead even it only enters your body by two inches, (read di grassi’s manual on sword fighting for the exact quote)

modern military doctrine is dont kill a soldier but instead wound him because it ties up more personel, a dead guy can be left where he fell.

#5

I would say simple, rather than simplistic.

There is no such thing as a realistic larp combat system. Realism is a goal that can only be approached by screwing over every other tenet of good larp design.

I really like one-hit combat systems. They takes away the “gameyness” of the rules and makes them intuitive. And the system I suggested is not “one hit you’re dead”. You’re only wounded. Just like what you mentioned about modern combat tactics, you’re down and some of your team will be taken up looking after you.

How do you feel about the believability of one-hit systems when armour is not a factor?

#6

I think discussion is always worthwhile. It’s unlikely that only one system will be used across the board, and I’d like to hear what people think about firearm rules in general. Like the classic “is one hit you’re down believable?” question, which is an interesting question across the board of firearm types.

Firearms in Warhammer will be quite rare so it’d be silly to use a laser system that requires everyone to wear a sensor just in case the one character with a gun shoots them. Likewise goggles would be silly, so airsoft and paintball are out. That leaves capguns and safe projectiles (e.g. pingpong burpguns). What should happen to a character who is hit with a blackpowder shot?

On the other hand, lasertag might be ideal for Stargate. But what should happen to a character who is hit with a round?

#7

Also you have to look at the amount of damage an old large calibre balck podwer weapon does. they are not travelling as fast but are heavier and not streamlined so they will follow an irregular path through the body.

The idea of the laser tag will work quiet well in a larp enviroment when the technology is ment to be well above normal and most if not all characters wear body armour and helmets.

You could include the sensors receased into most futuristic looking armours.

For warhammer I think guns will do similar damage to bows and crossbows for ease.

#8

For reference, what sort of damage do guns do in the RPG and wargame compared to bows and crossbows?

I think the guns will be slower to load, so you’ve got to wonder if anyone will use them if they’re no more effective.

#9

In warhammer the guns do more “damage” (higher strength different systems) than a bow and the same as a crossbow. Guns have the ability to ignore armour by an additional one in the tabletop game.
Bows and crossbows have additional range on most guns (excluding unique ones) and bows have the ability to move and shoot as crossbows and guns are slower to load.

#10

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]I would say simple, rather than simplistic.

There is no such thing as a realistic larp combat system. Realism is a goal that can only be approached by screwing over every other tenet of good larp design.[/quote]

simple is good, is realism not something that we could/should push for? i accept that total realism is not possible and there are going to be areas that we have to suspend disbelief escpecially when it comes to combat but outside combat or rather around the edges of combat is there not scope for more realism. my intention behind my idea (discussed elsewhere) was to create an atmosphere where the medics are dealing with realistic triage situations where all of your decisions are reduced to “who can i save and who can’t i save”.

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
And the system I suggested is not “one hit you’re dead”. You’re only wounded. Just like what you mentioned about modern combat tactics, you’re down and some of your team will be taken up looking after you.[/quote]

i like this idea but i would want it so that the medics are pushed to make hard choices, for example in the opening scene of “Saving Private Ryan” where the medic is working feverishly to save a GI only to have him hit and killed by a richochet just when he had a pulse again. basically a combat system that highlights the futility of combat. probably not possible i know but i can dream right.

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
How do you feel about the believability of one-hit systems when armour is not a factor?[/quote]

what do you define as armour? are you talking modern ballistic armour or medieval style plate armour, because they two react differently to bullet impacts, and it is impact or (to get all technical) transference of blunt trauma and shock that defeats modern armour, and penetration that defeats old style armour.

#11

[quote=“Carl”]around the edges of combat is there not scope for more realism. my intention behind my idea (discussed elsewhere) was to create an atmosphere where the medics are dealing with realistic triage situations where all of your decisions are reduced to “who can i save and who can’t i save”.

snip

i like this idea but i would want it so that the medics are pushed to make hard choices, for example in the opening scene of “Saving Private Ryan” where the medic is working feverishly to save a GI only to have him hit and killed by a richochet just when he had a pulse again. basically a combat system that highlights the futility of combat. probably not possible i know but i can dream right. [/quote]

I think this is probably achievable, and might help give the appearance of realistic (or rather, grim) combat. But unless you want complexity, you wouldn’t achieve it by trying to model bloodloss, shock, etc. Rather you could create a simple system whereby it’s impossible for a medic to tell whether treating someone is going to save them or not, until they’ve tried.

For example if you had a laser tag system, the medic could use their “medic gun” (disguised as a medical kit or whatever) to attempt to save a downed person. The chip in the victim’s system creates a delay to represent the time taken for first aid, works out whether it suceeded or not (probably using a randomiser built into the system and accounting for factors like the medic’s skill and type of damage taken), and then gives feedback (in the form of the character’s gun coming back online, or a “you’re dead” sound). In the mean time, some other downed person might also be dying and needing aid.

You could get the same effect without lasertag, but either the victim would have to know in advance but not tell the medic (I’m out of lifepoints and can’t be saved, or I’m due to bleed out before the time it takes to treat me is up), or the medic would have to use a randomiser (e.g. medical kit has a randomiser that tells you whether treatment succeeds, but not until you’ve finished).

I think a firat aid system like that would suit a Vietnam or WWII game, a military game about the horrors of war. It might also suit some slightly grimmer SF games, say Firefly. But I don’t think it would suit Stargate or Star Wars enough that it’d be worth the trouble of implementing for them.

Let me repeat the armour question, I think you missed a vital word.

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
How do you feel about the believability of one-hit systems when armour is NOT a factor?[/quote]

#12

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
For example if you had a laser tag system, the medic could use their “medic gun” (disguised as a medical kit or whatever) to attempt to save a downed person. [/quote]

or some kind of PDA (pardon the cliche, a tricroder)device that has the software to randomise the damage

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
Let me repeat the armour question, I think you missed a vital word.

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
How do you feel about the believability of one-hit systems when armour is NOT a factor?[/quote][/quote]

no you didn’t, i just didnt read it right, sorry it was late and i was crashing. but to answer your question.

in the intrest of simplicity yes, but not one shot one kill systems. one hit and you drop Ok, and then it gets worked what the damage was. but one hit and your dead, to easy, if i was playing a game with this system i would simply find a spot that was well concealed and snipe, and clean up, as would a number of others.

you put any of the guys with experience in the military or hunting up against a bunch of bunnies with a one hit and your dead system, and i know who i will be betting on.

it has to be a system that allows for a range of skills, or we get another situation like Mordavia, where the kings of the game are the sword club trained fighters. and shooting a gun with a degree of skill is so much easier than swinging a sword with equal skill, if not the us marines would carrying broad swords in irag and not M16’s.

#13

[quote=“Carl”][quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
For example if you had a laser tag system, the medic could use their “medic gun” (disguised as a medical kit or whatever) to attempt to save a downed person. [/quote]

or some kind of PDA (pardon the cliche, a tricroder)device that has the software to randomise the damage[/quote]

The advantage of a home-made laser tag system is that you don’t need a separate PDA, you can effectively build a very simple computer with randomisers etc into the lasertag system so that it’s fulyl integrated. So the “medic gun” (in the form of whatever suits the genre) is actually part of the lasertag system that tells the patient’s system that it’s being treated, via an IR message from the “medic gun” to the patient’s sensors.

Agreed. And not just because it’s too easy, but because it’s too deadly (character will die too often, which reduces roleplay potential) and removes the interesting roleplay that surrounds wounded characters.

That second consideration was the reason Mordavia changed from “Unconscious” to “Incapacitated” when characters reach zero health. The more often players are incapable of roleplay (as a result of being instantly dead or knocked out) the less roleplay is happening in the game overall. Also, playing being wounded can bring home the horror of combat. Or it could, if people weren’t so staunch about it. “My hero is too tough to cry out over being so badly damaged he’s incapable of walking” syndrome.

#14

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
playing being wounded can bring home the horror of combat. Or it could, if people weren’t so staunch about it. “My hero is too tough to cry out over being so badly damaged he’s incapable of walking” syndrome.[/quote]

but in modern combat where training is so intense this can be part of the character, as in the true blue gritty us marine that will carry five wounded buddies out of a combat zone with a dozen rounds inside him.

but it can also make for rather predictable game play, too many rambo’s

#15

this was on the news tonight, it is a good heads up warning for us if we ever plan to use Airsoft in a larp.

it is not just personal, physical safety we need to be concerned with but the legal safety of our commitee and the organisers of the games

[color=red]Police seize biggest-ever weapons haul
24 March 2006
By CHALPAT SONTI

More than 2000 airguns will be destroyed in what is believed to be the biggest seizure of imitation weapons in New Zealand.

Police confiscated 2103 guns – including imitation police-issued Bushmaster rifles and Glock pistols – from a Porirua man. He had been warned for selling the guns without a dealer’s licence in his shop, then again when found selling them on the Internet.

Kapiti-Mana arms officer Bruce Colville said police then found the man had simply switched identities and continued selling the guns on the Internet.

Police raided the man’s home in September and found the guns in a bedroom. He admitted having already sold about 300 for between $6 and $120 each.

It was believed to be the largest such haul of weapons in New Zealand, Mr Colville said.

The offender was granted diversion by Porirua District Court, and had to surrender the weapons to police. Included among the haul – which cost him about $20,000 to import from Hong Kong – were 17 types of weapons, including some with military scopes and laser sights.

The man was able to import the guns because there was no legal requirement to have a customs import permit for them, Mr Colville said.

Kapiti-Mana area commander Inspector John Spence said the guns, which fired plastic pellets, could create fear if carried openly in public or poked out of a car window.

“Irresponsible use will in all likelihood be met with an armed police response,” he said.

Police recently swarmed on a Porirua youth who wandered through the city centre with an imitation pistol tucked into his pants. No chances could be taken with such incidents, he said.

Mr Spence said while airguns were popular with children they were not toys. They cannot be sold to anyone aged under 16, while buyers aged between 16 and 18 need a firearms licence.

Buyers aged over 18 do not need a licence but can be prosecuted for failing to use airguns for their intended purpose.[/color]

the police tend to come down very hard on anyone using airsoft for anything other than thier intended purpose.

understand that i am not trying to be alarmist here but rather making sure all of the pitfalls are seen and identified before we head down this road.

NB; if this is in the wrong forum then feel free to move it.