There was some discussion recently on the Auckland Uni Medieval Guild that included the medieval club that lovely Chantelle is trying to organize for her students in school, and the last email she sent gave some interesting conclusion to be made.
Apparently, fighting, even with safe boffer weapon is seen as something socially undesirable for children - because involves hurting others (while things like “the whole rugby tackle thing” are ok because it’s “a real sport”), and it involves weapons (stuff like hockey and baseball don’t count, maybe because it’s “real sport” too), and also "because a reporter might be lurking at the gates and then expose the fact that we teach our children to fight…!"
Tae Kwon Do and Karate do not count, probably they are too “real sports”.
(all the stuff in quotes are quoted from what Chantelle said there).
So, does this whole thing means that fighting is not socially recognized as “real sport”?
I’m rather interested in this matter, as it’s difficult to hide the bruises after events, and I’m trying to explain to those who wonder scaredly that I’m doing this kind of sport.
Which is what it is in my opinion - sport with lots of fun.
“Real sports” often have national bodies associated with them. e.g. the Rugby Union. I would include SCA combat, AS&S and their ilk as real sports because they have national bodies.
However, boffer fighting is only a game because there is no nationally recognised code - everyone has their own version. i.e. they are still just games.
This is similar to Touch. When I was a kid, I would play Touch Rugby. It wasn’t a sport since there was no national body. Then one started in the 80s and it is now a real sport.
It’s a matter of maturity, not whether it involves contact or simulated violence.
I think what people have problems with really is the negative thoughts around pretending.
Weapons combat is often associated with role playing, which as much as we would like it not to be, is generally thought of as weird. Society feels funny about people who create an alternate reality. No matter if it is World of Warcraft, LARP, or simply sword combat in a tunic. People just don’t get it. They think its “childish” to “play pretend”.
This is what sets sword combat aside from other sports. I’m sure that western folks first started doing karate people poked fun at them, calling them weird and laughing at their uniforms. Told them they were being “childish” as they were “pretending to be Japanese”. That said, Karate probably won over because they all kicked people asses who mocked them, but eventually it became to be a perfectly normal thing, including for children.
I see sword combat doing the same. Only problem is that it’ll take a long time to come.
The whole concept of what constitutes a real sport is vague that it really defies definition after all there is a World Champs of Ironing, Cheese Rolling, Wife Carrying, Hot Dog Eating, Gum Chewing, and Spitting for Distance, are these “Real” Sports?
Something to keep in mind is that steel weapon figthing comes from historical re-enactment, not Live Action Role Playing and can we please respect the difference between “steel sword fighting” and Larp based “Boffer” fighting
The historical aspect of Historical Re-enactment gives it more of a Cultural aspect as well, in Kapa Haka maori boys are taught how to use the Taiaha and that is socially acceptable because it is “Cultural”.
While I do not actually know what kind of group Chantelle is trying to set up i am sure it is not a Larping group, and I dont care who disagrees with me but Historical Re-Enactment is NOT Larping.
I have done a Lot of displays for schools that are studying Medieval History andKids of all ages eat this up with a spoon, and personally I feel that the Cultural studies in our schools leans towards Te Reo and Kapa Haka way too much, now while this is great if you are from a maori heritage, its not too great if you are from a European heritage. And why are those students with European heritage not allowed to learn and explore thier cultural heritage.
I feel that this discussion is more about Cultural Acceptance, of medieval cultural re-enactment and less about what is a sport. besides I dont consider medieval combat to be a sport anyway, it is a martial art.
BTW What kind of Medieval group is Chantelle trying to set up?
Agreed, it’s like the difference between Rubgy and Touch. Similar, but most definitely different. So, does this make SCA the Gridiron of medieval combat ?
They are very different. Historical Re-enactment is a replication (within practical limits) of activities from a specific historical context (such as a battle, campaign or a theatre of war).
Taiaha is typically associated with Rituals of Encounter (i.e. the powhiri), so while it is a martial art, taiaha is also an aspect of a living cultural activity. It is a feature of the contemporary cultural paradigm, albeit with a tradition that is traced to historical contexts.
What about in 200 years from now, and some historical re-enactors are re-enacting the Fabled Game of Mordavia ?
Firstly, I’d like to know how you reconcile “I have done a Lot of displays for schools that are studying Medieval History” with " why are those students with European heritage not allowed to learn and explore thier [sic] cultural heritage". Seems to me that said heritage is being explored via the displays you are involved in.
Secondly, this is not a European country. We are a Pacific nation, and our cultural institutions (finally) reflect this.
Sure, when you and I went to school, the curriculum has heavily Eurocentric. But no longer, which is a Good Thing.
Just because our society is no longer Eurocentric, it does not follow that European cultures are undervalued. Rather, they take their place alongside the others, and integration will be a function of relevance, as opposed to a consequence of cultural imperialism.
Which is where you come in. Participating in historical European cultural displays is a way to engage our communities and develop interest. Wouldn’t it be cool if there was a European-oriented equivalent to the Pasifika festival ?
The intensity is different though, in touch the level of competition is still there, but the full blown aggression is not. I have never worked as hard boffer fighting as I do fighting steel
[quote=“mike Curtis”]
What about in 200 years from now, and some historical re-enactors are re-enacting the Fabled Game of Mordavia ? [/quote]
Dear God I hope not
fair comment, and truth be told the majority of the displays i have done are at primary school level. But we are talking about High School here, and I may be wrong i don’t know but I have not heard of many secondary schools offering European culture to thier students at the same level of Kapa Haka.
[quote=“Mike Curtis”]
Secondly, this is not a European country. We are a Pacific nation, and our cultural institutions (finally) reflect this.[/quote]
Ohhh I love it when people pull that rabbit out of thier hat, I am European, Danish and Scottish in fact, and I can trace my Whakapapa back for eight generations on my fathers side, and on my mothers side (Scottish) back to the battle of Culloden and yet I am considered to be a member of the lunatic fringe and a Freak because i dress in medieval clothes and practice medieval martial arts in a pacific nation.
How does your cultural institutions reflect my heritage, Seriously i have had a woman whiter than Martha Stewart tell me that because i am european I have no cultutre. Apartheid works both ways
Not my school, if you didn’t want to do Kapa Haka you had to do bible studies apparently the only culture europe had was the catholic church
I love your sentiment mike and respect it but honestly man I don’t see it, people hire the KD because they want to see sword fighting not culture, and A kapa haka group could walk down the street in thier costumes and not get a second look and when we do it we get called Freaks and have people try to pick fights with us.
I’m with you guys. Festivals are great. Cultural identity is great. In my experience in New Zealand, improving cultural identity also improves intercultural relations and the overall sense of unity – which is a great thing.
Carl, you should make some noises about and take responsibility for creating celebrations of New Zealand’s European heritage. While I practice modern European lifestyle every single day only occasionally taking time out to sing Waiata (contrary to my whakapapa, which I can also trace and is about a sixteenth Maori), I’d support such a festival. You’re right, there’s none around here - save for maybe the St. Patricks day parade. Think of all the great things Europe has brought us - conquest, technology, war, slavery, religion, capitalism and chocolate to name a few.
But I’d encourage you to do it in a positive way. At the moment it sounds like you’re whining and putting down the cultures that have done the work to celebrate their cultural heritage and identity. That’s no way to have a celebration.
Also Christmas, New Year’s Eve, the Queen’s Birthday, Easter, and the recent public jousts in Taupo and Matakana. I’m pretty sure that it would be possible to think of a lot of other festivals and holidays of European origin or influence. I think the reason there isn’t one big European Festival (apart from that fact that it is what most everyday lives are based on in NZ) is that there are lots of big ones celebrating different aspects already. Admitedly, mostly Christian aspects. But in the big scheme, Christianity is probably one of the most identifiable aspects of European culture.
But I can see it now. We could have a big Jesus piñata that you whack and small steam engines, slavery ships and cute little guns would fall out. We’d do Eastern European folk dancing while drinking pints of Guinness. No wait, St Patrick’s already has Guinness pegged. There would be celebrations of the arts of painting well-rounded naked ladies and the beautiful music of the bagpipes. Possibly whole orchestras full of bagpipes, all tooting and kazooing in time. T’would be grand.
No chocolate though. That’s from South America, we can thank the Aztecs or Mayans or something for it. But we can celebrate bread. Bread is very European. God bless Europia and her earthy breadstuffs.
None of those things (with the possible exception of capitalism, but I’m not sure about that since I know very little about economic history), and I mean none of them, are exclusive to Europe, and nor are they only present in other cultures once Europe came along. I’m not going to argue this further, assuming it was said in jest, but I’ll thank you Craig to stick with your positive approach since your negative one is so poorly researched.
Returning to the main topic of the thread.
The reason there is no single great European festival is because there is very little, if any, cohesive European identity. Europe is an area made up of a significant number of countries, but the number of cultures in Europe is probably three to four times as many as the number of countries. It’s an absolute melting pot of cultures, of ethnicities, of histories, of shifting political and linguistic boundaries. Not one country in Europe gets along with every other country, the political and cultural grudges run very very deep.
Europe can’t even make up its mind what constitutes Europe. Britian has at various points in history being terrifically eager to distance itself from any dealings with the continent, other times it has eagerly run to join their ranks. Is Russia part of Europe? Is Turkey part of Europe? Where do we draw the line at what Europe is?
Please be careful in this discussion also to not confuse ‘European culture’ with ‘British culture’, which I think a lot of the medieval groups tend to focus on. If I am wrong about this, please feel free to correct me.
Culture, also, isn’t necessarily something programmed into your genetical ancestry, it’s something you can choose to identify with. I’m Hungarian, I was born there, I speak the language and my genealogy is pretty solidly Hungarian, but at the same time, I identify with New Zealand culture, having lived here since I was seven and British + Western European culture, which I have spent most of my life studying.
With regard to being European in a Pacific country:
Ohhh I love it when people pull that rabbit out of thier hat, I am European, Danish and Scottish in fact, and I can trace my Whakapapa back for eight generations on my fathers side, and on my mothers side (Scottish) back to the battle of Culloden and yet I am considered to be a member of the lunatic fringe and a Freak because i dress in medieval clothes and practice medieval martial arts in a pacific nation. [/quote]
I think the problem there is the fact that it’s medieval, and people don’t know their history past…well, three weeks ago. People react badly to anything that visibly different from the norm. The past is something that most people are very out of touch with, European, New Zealand or otherwise, people in general know shit about history.
The truth is, no matter where we have come from or where our ancestors have come from, we are not in Europe in anymore. We are in New Zealand and whereas it does have a strong European influence upon it, it is not the same as Europe.
I’m not from around here, but I don’t expect anyone else to celebrate my culture for me. The Auckland Hungarian Club was created by Hungarians and is run by Hungarians. We celebrate and get in touch with our culture without depending on anyone else to do it for us.
I spent a lot of my childhood in New Zealand going along to multi-cultural fairs and celebrations with the Hungarian Club, getting up and celebrating my culture in front of others, and then sitting back and watching as they celebrated theirs, all in a fantastic mix. I always found it wonderful how curious and keen New Zealand was to display other people’s cultures. Perhaps it works on the basis that if we keep being open about it, then one day the calls of ‘freak’ (as Carl describes) will stop.
I think my point with this post is, if you want to celebrate your culture, get out there and do it, and don’t expect anyone else to do it for you. New Zealand is a better place than many to do it.
[quote=“Exquire”]
Carl, you should make some noises about and take responsibility for creating celebrations of New Zealand’s European heritage.[/quote]
Well there is already NAAMA every year, and on the 18th of june the KD are holding our annual tourney, and the Coromandel Celtic Fair as well so there are already a few festivals with western european themes and that is great.
I guess i am building castles in the sky to ever hope that European culture is ever going to have the same exposure as Maori and Pacific island culture in NZ, But it would be nice to see more Acceptance of the fact that Regardless of who you are in NZ you came here from somewhere else and that gives us all a connectionmakes us all Immigrants, or to use the term my Father used in his history of my family “Swans”.
While there may be an imbalance in what is available for the different cultures in terms of celebrating their own special holidays, I really don’t see it’s a problem.
Queen’s Birthday for example. In theory I suppose, we’re celebrating the Queen’s Birthday. I don’t though. I take a day off work and do whatever I feel like doing. If that’s going to a medieval event, cool. If I wanted to go to a kapa haka group, cool.
Different cultures are responsible for keeping themselves alive. Schools have money set aside for cultural stuff and I’m pretty sure they’ll pretty much support any culture that wants to put something in front of the kids.
As for kids training with steels words at school. I think that’s a bad idea. Some kids are probably mature enough to do this, but enough aren’t. Even blunt steels swords are dangerous and the chance of someone bleeding is pretty high.
I’m probably splitting hairs, but aren’t martial arts an aspect of culture ? Thought I get what you mean about KD getting some strange looks, and it’s a pity some are moronic enough to pick fights.
However, have you ever tried doing the same thing in Europe ? When I was on my OE I connected with a Druid grove who were based in North London. I attended their rituals of solstice, equinox, sammhain and beltain. Even though the rituals were low-key affairs in a public forest near Cockfosters (on the edge of London), on at least one occasion the police were called by concerned locals, not because of our behaviour, but because we were obviously non-mainstream.
Europe is not necessarily united in celebration of it’s shared histories. I suspect that the KD would receive a few sidelong glances if they walked through Picaddilly Circus, Marienplatz, St Marcos Square or elsewhere in Europe.
I think Ryan, Anna, Craig, Derek are right. Culture is continually in danger of being consigned to the dustbin of history. Anything that is not relevant to the here and now is likely to become a curiosity and then a distant memory. Which is why we need to support each other in terms of celebrating each other’s cultural heritage. Diversity is good.
Oh, and for the record, Maori already had conquest, technology (e.g. soils ), war, slavery, religion. And I’ll trade capitalism for dark chocolate any day
