Dogma 2007

Here are 967 words in response. I hope you will realise that this is only the most brief of examinations of this technique and its limitations.

What is often called ‘ The Method’ in acting is usually a reference to the Lee Strasborg interpretation of Stanislavki’s teaching. In general method acting combines a careful consideration of the psychological motives of the character, and some sort of personal identification with, and possibly the reproduction of the character’s emotional state in a realistic way. As has been stated earlier, the best way to represent being sad is to make yourself sad, the best way to represent the pain of shooting yourself in the foot is to shoot yourself in the foot. If one cannot bring oneself to this extreme then the next best thing is to remember the last time you were shot, or failing that felt any strong pain. While it has the potential to show a strong psychological realism, this potential is often not realized and instead we are often blinded with a psychological intensity which often attempts to hide the shortcomings and limitations of this style.

Method acting has often been called acting by not acting. Rather than acting the actor trys to recreate the psychological motivations of the character they are portraying. As can be appreciated the character that player will associate with will be an idealized version of themselves, thus the actor is most comfortable when they are playing themselves. This is summed up in the old saying “A person can always play themselves” and in many ways is the essence of the “Method”. Thus it can be said that a high point of method acting is when Michael Jordon played the part Michael Jordon in the movie “Space Jam”

This limitation shows itself when examines the concept of studying the “Psychological Motives” of the character. The person that an actor can associate the “Psychological Motives” best is themselves. This in many works on the old psychiatrist maxim “I am sane”. This works well in very similar contexts to which the actor is raised, however it starts to break down when an actor regards more extreme situations. For example an actor playing the role of Charles Manson will try to associate the behavior of the character with their own personal experience and must fail as they themselves are not mass murderers. The actor will then try to study the motivations of the character in psychological context. However even highly trained psychologists and psychiatrists have never been able to determine his motivations. Further the whole concept of psychological motivation works on a cause and effect premise. This premise can be shown to be false both theoretically and experimentally. Applying quantum physics to human brain function and psychology shows that human reactions can sometimes have no initiating action. To repeat that, for some actions that humans do there is no cause. When the preparing, the actor tries to find a cause and they will therefore make one up where no such link exists.

When one then tries to make a personal identification with a character again the actor starts with the presumption that they and the character that they are trying to portray have a common set of emotions. However members of New Zealand and US society do not have a complete set of emotions that are available in the world. For instance, Germans have a different set of emotions than New Zealanders. When one is playing a German the portrayal must be incomplete. This also extends to individual emotions, especially the sense of humour. Humour is very different in different countries. Without being able to fully understand this then the actor cannot play the character properly. All emotions seem to have a differing basis in different countries and times. Therefore any emotional association with the character will only be a 20th century view of that emotion.

A common method to try and overcome this limitation is therefore to try and live in the characters shoes for a period. A famous example of this is when, for the film Taxi Driver, Robert de Niro worked as a taxi driver in New York for several months. While this will give a mechanical understanding of the role of taxi driver it does not always give a psychological or emotional understanding. When Robert de Niro was a taxi driver he had several films under his belt and a very hefty paycheck promised by his contract. His motivation to be a taxi driver was to see what it was to be a taxi driver, the motivation of the taxi drivers was to stay alive. He will therefore always see their motivations through a distorting lens.

So in method acting the closer the role is to the actor then the more successful they are at the role. In more extreme or historical roles the ultimate complement to give an actor is to say that you like their interpretation of the character they played. This acknowledges that they did not play a historically accurate role, rather they played a reasonable role taking into account modern interpretations.

While “Method” is often used for psychological realism, these films are often most interesting to other method actors. This shows in that of the top 100 grossing films of all time at best only two of them can be said to have sold solely because of the psychological realism portrayed. Also in that most “Method” actors will normally only act in films of a very limited genre range. It has been argued that the “Method” has be responsible for an increase in psychological realism, but it can also be argued that cinema has produced this psychological realism through the mechanism of the Close up and more recently through the Steady Cam.

While “Method” is a fun and interesting technique in the Strasborg interpretation the limitations can quickly overcome any advantages thereby gained. To paraphrase Sir Lawrence Olivier, “Why don’t they just act”

[quote]Humour is very different in different countries. Without being able to fully understand this then the actor cannot play the character properly. All emotions seem to have a differing basis in different countries and times.[/quote]Then would not the attempt to find the psychological basis for another culture’s emotions form a bridge to understanding that culture? Even if you fail, you’ll have learnt something out of the process.

[quote]While this will give a mechanical understanding of the role of taxi driver it does not always give a psychological or emotional understanding.[/quote]So what? Close observation of how taxi drivers move, talk, laugh is still going to add verisimilitude of the portrayal of a taxi driver. Unless you think that DeNiro should have worked out all that stuff in his head without bothering to actually speak to a taxi driver in the entire course of the production of the film. Famously, Aristotle worked everything out in his head. Famously, he made a lot of errors.

[quote]So in method acting the closer the role is to the actor then the more successful they are at the role. In more extreme or historical roles the ultimate complement to give an actor is to say that you like their interpretation of the character they played. This acknowledges that they did not play a historically accurate role, rather they played a reasonable role taking into account modern interpretations. [/quote]In what way does the term ‘interpretation’ apply solely to method acting? It’s a very common term in film, theatre and literature. You can not act, or direct a film or play, or retell an existing story without making choices about how you will use the material.

[quote]Also in that most “Method” actors will normally only act in films of a very limited genre range.[/quote]Like… John Travolta. Who come to think of it has done a reasonably broad genre range. Robert DeNiro even more so.

[quote=“Stephanie”]

I must admit am am impressed with de Niro. I note that de Niro studied with Stella Adler, so while he uses the Strasborg Method I have mentioned, he has also learnt a different method that compensates, my comments on Strasborg method still stand. The question is, is de Niro good because of the “Method” or in spite of it.

I also note that not many people have complimented John Travolta on his psychological realism in the film "Grease"or “Look whose talking too”. Generaly when he goes outside of a certain range his performances tend to get ugly. Thankfully for him , most of the recent roles for John Travolta are playing the role of John Travolta. Even this he has difficulty with at the moment.

[quote]I also note that not many people have complimented John Travolta on his psychological realism in the film "Grease"or “Look whose talking too”.[/quote]But he’s also done films like Phenomenon which was convincing. I thought that you were complaining that method actors didn’t have a broad range.

Thanks Alista. We definitely disagree on this in all kinds of ways, but it’s great to hear your reasons in detail.

I do wonder if we are talking about the same thing in method acting. For example, I’d call what Viggo Mortenson did in the Lord of the Rings movies pretty much method acting. No idea if that’s what he or anyone else called it, but I would. Is the LotR the three movies you had in mind in the top 100 grossing, were you exaggerating how few there are, or are we just talking about different things when we say method acting? Show me a list of the top 100 grossing and I’d be interested to see how my estimation differs. DiCaprio and Depp seem like method actors to me, and they’ve a couple of top-grossing movies too. If Viggo and those two are usually method acting, then it doesn’t seem like your idea of “limited genre” is the same as mine.

Anyway, let’s bring this back to larp. In a movie, the actor is trying to portray a character to the audience. So it’s perfectly reasonable to say that it doesn’t matter whether they are method acting or “acting” acting, so long as it has the desired effect on the audience - whatever that may be for the movie in question.

But in larp, surely each player is not only trying to have an effect on the other players via their “performance”. They are also there for their own enjoyment, and their internal mental state while playing will contribute to that. Some players like to put themselves in the shoes of their character and identify with the character, they find this more enjoyable. This approach is comparable with method acting so similar approaches may be useful. That was my point, if you want to psychologically immerse in a character in larp then you might be able to learn from the techniques of method acting.

Thoughts?

A big part of “method” acting is to go out and find an example of the person you are playing and study them, as Dustin Hoffman did in “Rain Man” or to try and live the life of thier character in some way as the cast of “Saving Private Ryan” did.

I was taught that if want to play a person you have to know the person. One of the girls I went to acting school with once had to play a Russian imigrant so she went out and found a Russian woman who had just imigrated to NZ and spent a week with her, and her performance shined because of it.

But with larping that is difficult nigh impossible since the character does not exist or could not exist in our world so you need to find other avenues of exploring them.

What I did was base my character off two characters that i was familiar with and then entered every situation thinking how would character A deal with this and then how would Character B deal with it and took the option that felt right.

However with larping you are working without a net a lot of the time and just have to go with your gut.

When I played Strongbow the centaur I was doing a lot of horse riding. I tried to copy the horse mannerisms like walking into people, standing on their feet and snorting at them :smiley:

I also tried as far as possible to be a drunken, womanizing lout. Fortunately, 2/3 of these come very easily, and can’t really be considered acting :wink:

John Travolta three best known roles in Welcome Back Kotter, Saturady Night Fever and Pulp Fiction. These are all pretty much the same character at dirrent ages. I personally though his performance in Phenomenon was Ok while he played himself but as he got further from reality it got flat.

This is not Strasborg method.

And while this may promote a mechaniacl understanding it does not alwys promote realism as the actor is ialways asking how would I as a modern metrosexual 2007 male handle world war two. This distorts. Also it still assumes cause and effect, which free will and quantum physics obliterates.

I did not say many of the top 100 films did not have method actors in them. I said not many of the top 100 earners were noted for selling because of their psychological realism. Not the same thing.

I like DiCaprio. He is famous for being an anti-method actor. It is noted that when the call is made he stops playing pool, hands his cigarette to a stage hand and asks the director what his line is. No angsting over motivation. He just acts.

As I said before most metod is about adding emotional intensity and not realism. There are lots of ways of adding intensity, Adler, Chechov or Suszuki istantly come to mind. Or you can do what many of the great actors do, just drop the method and act.

Viggo Mortensen’s method approach to Aragorn was hammered constantly in the promotional material. It’s impossible to know what actually sells any given film so your point isn’t falsifiable, but psychological realism was certainly attempted as a selling point for LotR. And it is an example of method acting in an unusual genre. I suspect I could go through the top 100 grossers and demonstrate that the method acting in many of them didn’t prevent them from selling well, which I think refutes your underlying point that method acting is only suitable to a small number of popular films.

You’re essentially saying that an actor can’t properly empathise with some characters, so they should just say their lines and try to portray the character rather than empathise with them. That raises the question of how the writer or director can know what the character should say or how they should behave, but the actor can’t. The problem is irreducible, eventually someone somewhere has to decide what the character should do. When it comes to portrayal, why shouldn’t that person be the actor?

Referring this discussion back to larp again, who should decide what a character does and why? Surely the player of the character. What should they use as a basis for those decisions? According to you, they probably can’t empathise with the character, so what should be the basis of their decision? Whatever would make the most interesting story? Whatever would be most likely to achieve the character’s predetermined goals? Something else?

If a player wants to feel their character’s emotions, wouldn’t the best way to achieve that be something akin to method acting, putting themselves in their character’s shoes and trying to think as them rather than just portray them? Of course, not all players have emotional connection with their character as a goal but for those who do, what approach do you suggest?

[quote=“Alista”]
This distorts. Also it still assumes cause and effect, which free will and quantum physics obliterates.[/quote]

What in gods name does Quantum Physics have to do with acting.

If an actor has to play a character outside his current scope of experience then he;

1 researches the situation as much as possible

2 uses thier imagination

3 uses thier Talent (thats why they get paid the big bucks after all)

or 4 hires a kickass publicist to spin thier shite performance into an oscar nomination which overshadows the fact they suck

acting is a creative process, do you use Einstien’s theory of tunnel gravitational oppsie whatsits to describe Sir Lawrence Olivier’s performance of Hamlet…WELL DO YOU!!!

Do you use a slide rule to calculate the mitre of “Leaves of Grass” NO!

do you put the Mona Lisa into an MRI machine to find out what the canvas is made of HELL NO!!

Stop using an artless process to describe Art you…you…GEEK!!!

Do you break down Beethoven’s Ode to Joy into a Sine wave to analyse the acoustic properties of your Ass…I dont know maybe you do…but anyway

You hate method acting OK WE GET IT Strasbourg and Stanislavski should be hung and burned fine that is your opinion.

And to quote an actor that i am sure you will think is SOOOOO very Method, Paul Hogan, “Opinions are like Arseholes, Everyone has one.”

Why Dont you Pick On EMO music for a while, that is slipping under the radar a bit at present. Or the Greens, Or the fact that Britney Spears is going totally Libriarian Poo.

ANYTHING BUT ACTING.

All said with the upmost respect BTW :smiley:

It was good to see that the Quest game challenged the boundaries of larp acting.

Playing in a public park, with parked cars, WWII war relics and families walking their children in strollers really set off the groups of orcs in white sneakers and nylon board shorts running around shouting “aargh”.

With this heady backdrop of immersive excellence I can see why we need to discuss the finer points of how players get into character.

I am now going to unload all the costumes from my car that I brought down to Hamilton that we didn’t use.

Shame really because the Quest costumes were for the most parts rectangular pieces of cloth with a hole in them for your head - if you were lucky. If you were unlucky, you got a jagged rag with a hole in the middle for your head - that smelled musty.

Mmm.

I think the worst thing was that people who had turned up in really cool costumes ended up having to remove them to put on inferior costumes. That was very demoralizing.

I would really like to have seen Leonardo DiCaprio trying to act in the Titanic wearing board shorts, T shirt and sneakers. I’m sure his ability to “act” would have carried him through though!

Polietly speaking, I think that’s highly unfair of you, Derek.

Quest Waikato in my opinion is a game more about fun than realism, and I’m quite sure alot of fun was had last night.

I’m also quite sure that orcs and undead are hardly specialists in mordern style and hygiene… ripped cloth would be quite appropriate for them, IMO.

As one of the peolple who de-costumed to NPC, I hardly felt “demoralised” and a probably had more fun as a Ghoul/Ghost/Humphrey :wink: than I would have as Shiori, my Shugenja.

Is this the time to ask where you disappeared to? About half way through the game, we needed some numbers for an organised encounter and our only ghoul with the ability to run ( what was with that?) had long gone…

Never mind. I’m sure paying $120 to look up alien porn was far more fun.

Some people are quite happy with the ‘suspension of reality’ type of play.

My little sister’s favourite game was bows and arrows. They were make-believe, not phys-reped by anything. But we would have to take the arrows off her and put them in the top of the cupboard where she couldn’t reach them, and she’d sit there and cry because of it.

Get real, Derek, and have some tolerance for people who don’t want to spend their entire life savings on making people like you happy.

And yes, pun entirely intended

I think it certainly wasn’t polite of me. Probably not very friendly. Certainly somewhat inflamitory. But I think I’ve been pretty fair.

15 odd years ago the Quest games were better than this. After Alista was touting the finer points of larping and acting in great detail, I was expecting something a bit more special.

That’s a nice thing to say, but I don’t believe you.

I was double booked with nibbles so I’d always planned to leave around 9ish. That was one of the reasons I wanted to crew.

Can’t help but enjoy those three breasted Venesians :smiley:

I do.

I do much more than tolerate them. I give away, lend, hire and sell literally tons of equipment to people.

But when people set the bar low, I’ll tell them how low it is as well. Some hate me for it, which really doesn’t worry me. Some accept the challenge and lift it. I’m happy to help them lift it as well.

You miss my point. The ‘bar’ shouldn’t have to be lifted.

And there I guess is where we’ll just have to disagree.

As someone trying to market Quest to everyone out there, the last game went less than perfectly. From that point of view I was less than happy.

HOWEVER

Points missed…
Yes Quest NPC costumes leave a lot to be desired. Yes it is a shame.
Sadly Quest does not have the resources available that it may once have had.
I would love to see Quest really well equiped. If I had the spare cash I’d love to invest in Quest… believe it or not but the system (if not the resources) is highly playable.

We would have borrowed your costumes but we sadly didn’t know whay was brought. Part of this has to do with the next point.

Next point.
The game was poorly organised.
The GM kind of got skittled by the lack of his support crew at the very beginning. It happens. Game got off to a rocky start.
We have a range of GM’s, a range of game styles, every game is completely unique. (Even the exact same game plan will always end up different)
By that token not every game is perfect but some are very very fun.

I think a lot of people had fun. They may have had to stretch their imaginations but the typical larper certainly has enough spare brain power to fill in the gaps that the costumes miss.

But we do view some of this criticism as positive. We know what is lacked in the resource department.

Onwards and upwards
Jared
[/b]

Hi Derek, good to see you again

[quote=“Derek”]It was good to see that the Quest game challenged the boundaries of larp acting.

Playing in a public park, with parked cars, WWII war relics and families walking their children in strollers really set off the groups of orcs in white sneakers and nylon board shorts running around shouting “aargh”.

With this heady backdrop of immersive excellence I can see why we need to discuss the finer points of how players get into character.
[/quote]

Cool, I thought you would get it. We are not into acting, we are into Role Playing. Anyone can role play in an immersive game, it takes talent to Role Play when there are distractions. Sorry the wandering peasants put you off.

We take issue with this. They are square, not rectangular.

[quote=“Derek”]
I would really like to have seen Leonardo DiCaprio trying to act in the Titanic wearing board shorts, T shirt and sneakers. I’m sure his ability to “act” would have carried him through though! [/quote]
Actually I would like to see that too. Being an anti-method actor I’d give him equal odds. If David Bowie can play the Elephant Man without make up, why can’t DiCaprio. I have have seen a director reading a part from a script while wearing jeans in an Edwardian play. Nobody noticed after the first two minutes. He had talent.

I was impressed with the quality of Role Play. The ghouls doing a mating dance. But that was after you left. The orcs promoting their number. But again that was also you left. The humphrie attack and the orcs reaction. Sorry that was again after you left. The druid acting as decoy and the heroism of the fighter. Again after you left. In fact all the good role play happened after you left. I’m sorry that you missed it. Must have just taken a little while to get into character. Summary. 21 players present. 16 definate returns. 1 no return and 4 possibles. A good nights play.

As a scientist, you must surely know that squares are a subset of rectangles. The statement “they are square, not rectangular” is logically flawed.

I don’t know if the “1 no return” is meant to be me or not, but I never said I wouldn’t be coming back. The hardest thing to get in this game is players. Motivating them to desire excellence is easy in comparison. There wasn’t anyone at the game whose company I didn’t enjoy.

I just think that with the same people and a bit more effort you could have a lot more fun.

My post above was made after getting up after five hours sleep. I don’t disagree with what I said, but had I been a bit more rested I probably would have just kept my mouth shut.

Shortly, I’m going to post my ideas on how to get a larp game going in a “better” direction. That’s “better” for me.