Complex rules versus simple rules

Ryan, I like the electronic gun idea but I think it will be discarded because of logistics and cost. The number of guns in a Star wars larp is going to be quite large, equipping crew and players with a range of blasters is going to be expensive.

But before we go that far:
How much is a pistol or blaster going to cost and what will they look like?
Will they be robust and can you retro-fit existing toy guns?

The cost comparison is that of the old lazer gun from the cupboard being instantly useable with a call system.

I know which I prefer but knowing larpers, it won’t be easy to go for the costlier option.

Back to the simplification debate:
Most of what I am saying hinges on medium complexity and the assumption that a call system will be used regardless of what we argue.

Simplification doesn’t mean the eradication of tactical options, so using an assumed called gunfight system, the following idea might work “target id, zap (standard call for 1 damage in global HP)” and tactical option A “target id, zap zap zap” represents a burst, tactical option B “target id, blast” represents bigger damage, tactical option C “target id, blast, armour” represents armour damaging. For option C “armour” isn’t a call but part of the identifier.
The tactical abilities would be listed on the characters sheet but all the other players would need to know is that zap is 1 damage, blast is 2.
Tactical option D “target id, blast” can also represent the THROUGH ability, except that a skilled character can do this with a weapon that normally only goes ZAP.
Tactical option E “target id, zap, *limb” whereby *limb could automatically represent a DISABLING shot. Otherwise all shots are assumed global (torso). This might mean that any disabling shot (limb) only requires a single shot to work, so if this is altered by race then you only need to let the members of that race know that. Balance this ability by making it expensive etc.

By doing this all you have to brief players on is zap, blast, limb and armour, you loose locational HP but still have all the same tactical options.

Now the obvious problem here is that zap and blast become calls for ranged damage, which means if you want bigger damage for melee then you need another set of calls to represent this. I’d go for one. Attach suitable IC call. Bash/smash/crush etc.

Force powers - now while I agree in theory that many of them could do without calls, visual only stops working at night or in impeded.

deflect blast - no call really needed, just RP it.

reflect blast - player with lightsaber in hand makes a normal ranged call “target id, zap”. I would suggest reflected shots only do “zap” representing lost energy from the bounce.
Only the player reflecting needs to know they are reflecting, other players should assume a lightsaber weilder can do this. no extra call needed.

Choke - short range - player using it states “I will CHOKE the life from you” and the call becomes more IC

Some of the others may be more problematic than this. Instead of having force speed, how about those characters who has this power simply have more dodges? Dodging can be RP’d and player could say “Can’t hit me!” of an identifier is need. Again no extra call needed.

Others:
Dive - if only people with dive can “Dive” then is a call needed?

For creatures immune to a damage type rather than saying “immune” the monster could say IC “you weapon can’t hurt me puny one” or some such.

I have more ideas than this but you can see, although calls are still being used, they have been heavily reduced and made a little less game mechanical.

EDIT: Damn simultaneous posts (Ryan). His points are similar, the same tactical situations can be achieved with a few standard calls.

Jared - in terms of guns, if sound effects are not available then a “bang” call of some sort is fine. Players could acquire better props over time, and the call could be phased out so it’s only used when targets don’t notice a shot.

Your system suggestions are still too complicated. You’ve got multiple damage, burst fire, and armour damage, none of which are needed. I’ve also removed armour damage & repair, as armour does not have points in the system I suggested.

My suggested system only requires two calls, “arm” and “leg”, which are only used in ranged combat and would probably be rare. You’d need a crack shot ability to use them, and you’d only use them if you wanted to disarm or slow down your target without incapacitating or killing. All other calls would only be used if sound effects are not available, or the target is unaware of the attack.

I’ve designed that system to simulate the movie combat as closely as possible, with minimum rules:

Han shoots Greebo in the torso with a blaster. Greebo is unarmoured, has no hit points, and is not Durable. Greebo is killed .

Revised Greebo shoots at Han first. Han loses a hit point, but gets the last laugh when he shoots back (see above).

Leia shoots a stormtrooper in the torso with a blaster (or Chewbacca shoots him with his crossbow, or whatever). The stormtrooper has no hit points and is not durable. He would normally be killed, but he’s wearing torso armour so he’s incapacitated.

Stormtroopers rain fire on Luke, Hans, and Leia. The heroes lose hit points, but are not wounded. This represents the stormtroopers being bad shots, or the heroes being good dodgers.

Stormtrooper shoots a rebel troop in the opening scene of A New Hope. Rebel has no armour or hit points. Unless he’s durable, he’s dead.

Luke and Darth Vader are dualing in Cloud City. One of them slices the other. It’s a hit point loss. Lots of near misses, more HP losses. Darth reduces all of Luke’s hit points, then lands a blow on his wrist. Luke’s hand is severed and he drops his lightsaber. But Luke is Durable, so he’s not incapacitated yet. If he had a weapon, he could keep fighting with his other hand. Instead, he throws himself after his weapon and slides out through the air duct or whatever it was.

Darth Maul and Qui-Gon are dualing (Obi-Wan is trying to get to them through the force fields). It’s being going a while and both are down on HP. Maul gets Qui-Gon down to 0 HP, then stabs him through the torso. Even though Qui-Gon is Durable, a lightsaber wound to the torso is a kill. Almost a minute later when Obi-Wan reaches Qui-Gon, his master just has enough time left to whisper a few words before expiring. No advanced medical care available to save him.

I won’t argue that your above suggestion wouldn’t work Ryan, it’d probably be more than sufficient. And as you stated fits the feel of the movies quite well.

And I like the HP/Wounds/Incapacitation idea. Its nice. I would suggest that limbs are always wounded before cut off/severed.

In terms of torso wounds it would give characters a chance to be really hurt without dying outright which would make dying or being killed a very deliberate act. (Unless the character felt they should be dead for RP reasons).

My points are still, if you want the options that Adam feels are necessary, then you can do them with fewer standard calls. Even if I didn’t put it in a very elegant form.

[quote=“Jared”]I would suggest that limbs are always wounded before cut off/severed.

In terms of torso wounds it would give characters a chance to be really hurt without dying outright which would make dying or being killed a very deliberate act. (Unless the character felt they should be dead for RP reasons).[/quote]

There may well be improvements that could be made around wounds. Preferably improvements that would make it simpler to learn and use.

Sure.

My point is that those options are not necessary to a Star Wars larp. They provide detailed “tactical options”, i.e. a very gamey game, for those who like that flavour. But they do so at the expense of not suiting real-time play and distracting from characterisation and immersion.

[quote=“Jared”]Ryan, I like the electronic gun idea but I think it will be discarded because of logistics and cost. The number of guns in a Star wars larp is going to be quite large, equipping crew and players with a range of blasters is going to be expensive.

But before we go that far:
How much is a pistol or blaster going to cost and what will they look like?
Will they be robust and can you retro-fit existing toy guns?

The cost comparison is that of the old lazer gun from the cupboard being instantly useable with a call system.

I know which I prefer but knowing larpers, it won’t be easy to go for the costlier option.[/quote]

I think you might have meant me, so I’ll answer here.

Making three ray guns cost $300. That was all the research and everything, and we were able to make 3 (we only made 2 because we ran out of time).

The sound/trigger-only ones would be heaps cheaper, I think you could do a reasonable one from $20 at off-the-shelf prices. Electronics doesn’t get easier than this: you have one circuit and the trigger links up the wires.

So long as you can get inside toy guns and replace the bits (other than the trigger), you should be fine. 9V batteries are best, so it would help if the toys already had a place to put one of those. Re-painting toy guns worked for me, here’s something that could work or or another one.

Some frames would suit different types of sirens (bigger ones tend to be louder). Builders and modders would soon know what to look for. Best results would let sound out the front of the gun, which wouldn’t be too bad (a siren like this would look cool painted: sncb.org/images/sirena3.jpg).

I hope this answers your questions.

Still the same ones they use today :stuck_out_tongue:

You guys all have some great ideas, but I don’t think this should be a case of drafting a new system and asking Adam to use that instead >.<

And as a last note on force powers and hand signals (in agreeance with Derek) - who remembers Mike aka Mephistopheles at the last SW game using his ability to “command” people. I saw him play with this a few times, and every time it was fairly straight forward; he made a lecherous beckoning motion with his hand and leered at his victim to the tune of “Come to me, COME to me…”. There was no declaration of the ability being used, but it was clear as day (even at night) from the action what was going on, and EVERYone was quick enough on the uptake to play along. On one occasion he pointed at his victim first to identify them, but there was still no actual call involved.

The point there is hand signals can work amazingly well. From what I remember of it, Masquerade/Requiem had a few that worked as well, except that thing with the fist and the fingers and the flat palm… :stuck_out_tongue:

What anyone does with their larp is their call.

My point is to demonstrate that the complexity isn’t needed, by giving an example of simple rules that would do the job. It’s not specific to Star Wars, it’s a general point with a topical example.