Arrows

At Teonn I had the good luck to run into Zara after the market. She was kind enough to shoot me with both her arrows and my IDV arrows so that I could compare how it feels.

The experience of being hit with the two different types of arrow was similar. They both hit my chest with a solid impact, but nothing like hard enough to leave a bruise on me. In both cases I thought that I’d prefer not to be hit in the head with them, but it wouldn’t injure me. A direct hit to the eye with either arrow would be uncomfortable and may cause some reddening and watering. Therefore shots to the head should be avoided, much like headshots with latex weapons should be.

I felt that the IDV arrows may have hit slightly more firmly than Zara’s arrows. However, I believe this was because the IDV arrows fly faster if you draw the bow the same amount, not because the heads are harder.

IDV do say that their arrows do fly faster at the same draw weight, and therefore drop less over the same distance, meaning that you shouldn’t correct your aim as much with them (i.e. you must aim lower). For this reason they recommend that you stick to using one type of arrow and not mix them, because the archer gets used to how to correct for the arrow flight. I think this was apparent in our test - Zara felt she was aiming at my chest, but from my perspective it looked like the arrows were aimed at my head and the first arrow IDV arrow she shot at me zipped past my head.

Overall, I thought that both types of arrow are larp-safe when used well. Larp archers should practice extensively to ensure that they can shoot accurately and adjust their draw weight for the target distance. Head shots should be carefully avoided - for this reason very long shots where accuracy is difficult should be avoided. Archers should stick to one type of arrow that they are experienced with. The IDV arrows should be drawn with less weight than arrows like Zara’s, so as to not hit too hard, especially at close range.

Chris (TazzyD) had some IDV arrows at this Teonn. I’d be interested to hear how they went, how people felt about being shot with them as compared with Zara’s arrows. They look like this:

I have three more IDV arrows in stock, they are $19 each or $15.20 with the 20% NZLARPS member discount. I will get more in if these sell.

I managed to get a few shots after I got them, admittidly I’ve not used other larp arrows, so don’t have a comparison.

Unfortunately, I didn’t get to use them against players. This was annoying, as I didn’t take them along when I could have used them, and was carrying them when I didn’t have a chance too. Damn you Murphy and your law!!

I’ll definitly have them next time.

I’m used to SCA combat and our arrows hit bloody hard. :smiley:

These are as gentle as kisses in comparison and I have no trouble being shot with them. I still think the back end of the arrow is dangerous, and I’d like people to make sure they inspect arrows before shooting them. In particular, to not shoot arrows that are missing fletchings or have fletchings that are lose, because the arrows may turn in flight.

IDV describe their rubber fletchings as “almost indestructable”.

They’re certainly very solidly attached to the shaft - check out the picture below where the red fletchings can be seen to be in a single piece with a rubber tube that runs around the shaft. IDV describes this as “captive fletching”.

A thin bit of foam wrapped around the nock and slit would probably alleviate any real concerns about the back end and not too adversly effect the arrows performance. It’d be cheap to do and worth testing.

I think that traditional (or IDV) fletchings are sufficient, providing they are attached.

This should be a common practice. As a point of safety for UK LARPs, anyone wanting to use a bow must have a competency cert issued by the GMs of the system, where the player demonstrates not only safe firing (ie not into melee’s, at night etc), but how to check and identify arrows that are unsafe. Standardisation FTW. Might be something worth reconsidering, as it takes very little time and no cost, save deciding on and writing down what’s considered “safe”. Adam suggested it previously but unfortunately it never got any further.

Bounceback, being the other point of concern, I think should be examined more carefully by those that are worried about it - I understand the concern, but first-hand experience tells me that LARP arrows like Zara’s are built to stop dead on impact, so bounce is a non-event. I’m not sure how the IDV arrows compare though as they seem to be limited to a few of the smaller systems here. That said, the standard rule of “don’t fire into a melee” would also help eliminate this concern.

I believe Adam checked people at some of the Wolfgang’s events to see they knew what they were doing.

The SCA rules say that:

  1. you cannot pick up arrows off the ground during combat and shoot them.
  2. they must be inspected between combat for lose heads, cracked shafts and lose or missing fletchings.

We also don’t let archers shoot from within 5m, but if people only partially draw their arrow and aim for the legs, I think this is safe.

I think that some weapon testers in the UK (working for Profound Decisions) found that both types of arrows have bounce-back, but IDV have slightly more. Separately, I recall that they also raised some concerns over the potential for water-logging of open-cell-foam tipped arrows in wet weather to degrade the arrow safety. They also mentioned that that IDV doesn’t seem to have the fletching-loss-tumbling concern, and some other observations. I can try to dig up that discussion… I think it was on Pagga. It’s a mixed bag with advantages either way.

It’s more than likely the case. I have no issue with either arrow type, but I do know some systems here still don’t allow the IDV arrows as the rounded head fits into an eye-socket too well. I’m pretty sure it was you that put an article up previously on how they’re designed to be too big for that in some way, so meh.

The common rules for archery here are along the lines of;

-Don’t fire at persons in close melee
-Don’t fire at persons in the darkness
-Don’t fire at point-blank (5-10m)
-Arrows must not have wood or carbon fibre shafts - this follows an incident last year when a CF shaft had cracked, and shattered out of the bow. The target got a half-metre of CF rod to the throat. He lives, but CF basically got banned from CP/Lorien trust overnight.
-Arrows must be inspected prior to every single use - because of the scale, it’s often not feasible for every archer to go and fetch only their own arrows, so collecting arrows from the ground is allowed, BUT - the danger of faulty goods being used is mitigated by use of fibreglass shafts only and constant inspection during play. Similar to SCA/latex weapons, anything that’s loose/unglued from the core/shaft, anything cracked or otherwise damaged, loose/missing fletching…

It’s just common sense stuff. You probably get the idea :slight_smile:

Serious talk aside - I’m positively ecstatic that bows are becoming a more featured item in the community :smiley:

Incidentally - primalforge.co.uk/will_hunting_bow

Awful. According to their site IDV have fibreglass shafts. However, I’m not entirely convinced about this ruling by Lorien Trust. When I’ve seen engineers write about fibreglass versus carbon fibre in the past (in relation to sword cores), they’ve emphasised that the characteristics of the two both depend on their exact composition, and that any given carbon fibre rod can have better performance than a specific fibreglass rod, and vice-versa, depending on the exact specs to which they’ve been manufactured. I think people get used to the specific type of fibreglass or carbon-fibre they most often encounter, and assume that they’re all like that, when there’s actually heaps of crossover. In terms of shaft breakage, I think the important thing is to check the shaft frequently for cracks, and immediately discard arrows showing signs of cracks in the shaft.

Awful. According to their site IDV have fibreglass shafts. However, I’m not entirely convinced about this ruling by Lorien Trust. When I’ve seen engineers write about fibreglass versus carbon fibre in the past (in relation to sword cores), they’ve emphasised that the characteristics of the two both depend on their exact composition, and that any given carbon fibre rod can have better performance than a specific fibreglass rod, and vice-versa, depending on the exact specs to which they’ve been manufactured. I think people get used to the specific type of fibreglass or carbon-fibre they most often encounter, and assume that they’re all like that, when there’s actually heaps of crossover. In terms of shaft breakage, I think the important thing is to check the shaft frequently for cracks, and immediately discard arrows showing signs of cracks in the shaft.[/quote]

This is the reason IDV arrows are not allowed at most larps in the UK - the risk of critical failure is too high. Should that broken arrow have struck the target at a slightly (and i mean milimetres) different angle they would now be dead.

For this reason we use aluminium and / or wood shafts on our arrows and follow the same format that CP allows for the diametre of the foam heads.

The SCA rules for NZ and Aussie require wooden arrows to be wrapped in fibre tape. I’ve seen several break after hitting helmets, shields, trees etc, and this stops them becoming too dangerous.

IDV arrows use fibreglass shafts. According to the post above, CP allows arrows with fibreglass shafts. So that’s not the reason.

The main reason I’ve heard that Curious Pastimes & Lorien Trust give for not allowing IDV arrows is the shape of the head. CP & LT demands a flat striking surface, and IDV arrows have a curved striking surface. Profound Decisions, the second-largest larp runner in the UK by numbers, does allow IDV arrows, as do a number of smaller UK larps.

I wouldn’t want to have any broken arrow shaft hit me, whether it was made of carbon fibre, fibreglass, aluminium, or wood. The key is therefore chosing a material that won’t break, and to check shafts for cracks and discard cracked arrows.

In terms of whether fibreglass, wood, or alumium shafts would be more likely to break, I imagine it depends a lot on their exact composition. On their website, IDV say that they considered using both wood and fibreglass shafts and decided on fibreglass for safety reasons: greater durability, less sharp projections formed on breakage, breakage occuring more slowly and with more forewarning, less likely to suffer water damage. This seems to accord with Derek’s observations of wooden arrow shafts breaking.

Personally, I find IDV reasonably trustworthy in regards to arrow safety. They’re engineers who have studied the subject, performed trials of different arrows, and have sold more larp arrows than anyone else and would have received a lot of feedback. For me, that adds up to solid credentials on the subject.

Timber shafts wrapped in fibreglass tape are good.

Some of the SCA battles in Aussie have literally thousands of arrows fired over the period of a war. They get fired into plywood shields, steel helmets; they get trampled by combat boots and fallen on by ‘slain’ combatants.

We get breakages, but only arrows, not people.

i suspect the big difference is sca armor standards