Archery safety testing this Sunday 26 July

This is a good point, but I don’t have a first aid kit to bring. If anyone could bring one that would be nice. I am a certified first aider though, as many larpers seem to be.

Not wanting to downplay the risks, but it has to be said that the sword and shield training prior to the archery test is possibly more dangerous than the test, as it’s a lot less controlled than what I have in mind what with flailing limbs etc. I managed to knee myself in the wrist at the last one during a particularly inept maneuver, and it’s only just starting to come right. :wink: I don’t know whether there is usually a first aid kit available for the sword and shield practice either.

You should just come to sword training at 10 and then stay for the archery. Then you will see how it goes first hand. Plus you will get to do some sword fighting with an awesome group of people.

Just cause it’s trying out new bows and aiming and stuff, would giving the crash test dummies safety glasses be a good idea? They’re pretty cheap from places like Bunnings and Mitre 10.

You should just come to sword training at 10 and then stay for the archery. Then you will see how it goes first hand. Plus you will get to do some sword fighting with an awesome group of people.[/quote]
Sadly, I’ve been unable to make it to any of the sword training - my Sunday mornings have been busy for weeks. This weekend is a continuation of that pattern.

I’ll try to bring my goggles and saftey glasses (got 3 pairs in total if i can find them).

I’ll try to bring my goggles and saftey glasses (got 3 pairs in total if i can find them).[/quote]

Text me if you can’t find them - I have two or three pairs and live fairly close

I think Stephanie may have been referring to testing actual prescription spectacles, as suggested by Chris in a separate thread.

There will also be a fencing mask present, which is probably ideal.

No, I just meant standard safety glasses in case an arrow goes astray while someone’s trying out a new bow. Fencing masks are great, too.

Oh I do have an old pair of CR32 (plastic) perscription glasses I can bring along (Don’t care if they get scratched up as they are the ones I got in 3rd form which was a few years back now). I doubt though that any of the bows will do anything more than knock them off any head simulant we have. Just to prove what I said about those lenses being practicly “larp safe”.

Awesome, I will bring a polystyrene head.

I think Chris’ point was that since not all participants (especially new crew members) buy their glasses especially for larping, we should test some bottom of the range standard glasses to see if they break.

Does anyone have one of Zara’s arrows we can test? It wouldn’t involve damaging the arrow, just shooting it.

Also - Cameron or any other engineers - do you have some kind of pressure or impact detector that we could shoot at in order to get an objective measure of impact?

Thanks to everyone who helped with the archery safety test today - archers, targets, measurers and arrow-fetchers alike.

I’ll be writing up our observations and my recommendations based on them. However, as always it is up to GMs to decide what weapons they allow and what practices for the use of those weapons they recommend at their games.

In terms of the bruising to the neck that Zanni took from an arrow at Teonn, we measured the bow in question and found that it had a considerably higher draw weight at maximum draw length than the other bows. It measured 34lb at full draw, where the others measured 27lb or under. The fact this this bow exceeds the usual 30lb @ 28" upper limit for larp bow draw weight may help to explain the injury despite the archer not using a long draw.

However, it’s also the case that all of the bows we tested could also be problematic if used with even a moderate draw at close range. Hence my recommendations will largely be around appropriate draw lengths at different ranges.

EDIT: corrected the weight of the bow, it was 34lb not 35lb.

So, here’s the report. Skip to the end if you’re only interested in my recommendations for larp archery with round-headed IDV arrows.

We measured four types of bow using IDV round-headed arrows.

Draw length was measured from the cleft of the nock to the “back” of the bow (which is the part of the bow that faces the target). The IDV round-headed arrows have a maximum draw length of 710mm, or 28". This is the length to the beginning of the “IDV” sticker on the shaft near the head of the arrow. Three of the bows could draw to this length. Bow B could only draw to 24".

We used a bow scale and measuring tape for all measurements, apart from the effective range which we just paced out as it was only for interest. We measured effective range by firing the arrows at roughly a 45 degree angle and at their full draw.

[size=130]Measurements[/size]

Bow A - IDV 140cm 27lb @ 28"
Official draw weight: 27lb @ 28"
Measured draw weight: 27 lb @ 28"
Effective range at full draw: 42m

Bow B - Squire bow small 96cm
Official draw weight: 25lb @ 26"
Measured draw weight: 26.5 lb @ 24"
Effective range at full draw: 23m

Bow C - Barnett Lil’ Sioux
Official draw weight: unknown
Measured draw weight: 34lb @ 28"
Effective range at full draw: 50m

Bow D - Martin Archery (model unknown)
Official draw weight: 25lb
Measured draw weight: 26.5lb @ 28"
Effective range at full draw: not measured

[size=130]Testing[/size]

We shot the bows at people at ranges of 20m, 10m and 5m and asked the targets to rate whether the impacts were good or too hard. Faces were not targeted, but targets were asked to estimate whether the impact would have been acceptable if it had hit their face. This approach tended to lean targets towards saying blows were too hard more readily than they might otherwise, so these results could be considered conservative.

At each range bows A, B, and D were relatively similar. Bow C was stronger, and had to be drawn much less to result in an acceptable impact. Bow C was only tested at 20m range, after which we decided not to continue testing it because a) it would involve extra work to determine its acceptable draw length as it differed a lot from the other bows and b) it exceeded the usual international maximum larp bow draw weight of 30lb @ 28" inches so we considered it unlikely that GMs would wish to have it at games. It should be noted that this bow had previously been found acceptable at an archery training event, but that was without the benefit of a bow scale to give an objective measure of draw weight.

At 20m range a full draw generally resulted in acceptable impacts (apart from bow C).

At 10m range a full draw was too hard. A draw of about 430mm or 17" was acceptable across bows A, B and D.

At 5m range a draw of 430mm was too hard. A draw of about 390mm or 15" was acceptable across bows A, B and D.

We also shot at a pair of plastic-lensed glasses mounted on a polystyrene head at a range of 5m, with a draw of about 400mm. The shots that landed on the glasses did not appear to damage them. Two slight dents were made in the polystyrene head where the glasses were forced against it.

[size=130]My recommendations[/size]

These are only my personal recommendations based on this test, and are specific to the IDV round-headed arrows as those are the only arrows we tested.

Maximum 27lb draw bows - I recommend bows with a maximum draw weight of 27lb at full draw for use with round-headed IDV arrows. While this is less than the usual international standard of 30lb @ 28", that standard was developed in the UK with the use of flat-headed arrows with open-cell foam padding, which fly slower and hit softer. Bows with a maximum draw weight of 27lbs are readily available to us, and this weight was sufficient to achieve acceptable ranges in the test.

Use minimum draw length for range - I recommend that archers only use the draw necessary to reach their target at the given range and to target the middle of their body with accuracy. There is a temptation to draw longer in order to give a faster shot, however our tests found that these faster shots were often unacceptably hard. Our targets also frequently mentioned that having things flying at them at high speed was alarming, so have some empathy for the targets.

Mark draw lengths - I recommend that archers mark their IDV round-headed arrows at distances 390mm and 430mm from the inside of the nock, and practice shooting at targets at measured ranges of 5m and 10m using these marks, at 20m range using full draw, and at intermediate ranges using intermediate draw lengths. This will help to calibrate your draw to acceptable lengths for the range. Use a human target at first so they can inform you if the impact was too hard, and you can reduce your draw accordingly.

Only wear plastic-lensed glasses - I support Cameron Burns’ recommendation that only plastic-lensed glasses be worn at larps with live combat. This is not just for safety in archery, but also for foam weapon combat and to prevent broken glass underfoot. Cameron says that most prescription glasses these days are plastic-lensed, as they are lighter and more durable.

Thanks again to everyone who helped with the test.

Ryan

That was lots of fun :slight_smile:

As a crash test dummy standing at 10m and 20m you get to fully appreciate that most of the archers are not accurate enough to hit you in a specific location (i.e. not the head). At 20m most arrows missed me and a lot of them were at or above head height. At that range, with most archers, it really was a case of “I hit! Roll for location…”

If we include combat archery in our games, I believe that we also have to accept that around 5% of arrows that hit are going to strike the head, neck or groin. That is kind of scary because, even when you know they have padded heads on them, arrows are much more scary than rubber swords. I don’t want to be hit in the face with one of these arrows, but I don’t believe it would permanently injure me.

Shields certailny make you feel better if you can see the arrows being shot at you, but with massed archers or a distraction, you can easily be shot while unaware.

I would prefer to adopt the 30# @ 28" that other games use. Standardization is a good thing.

I also think we should accept arrow that slide along the ground and hit you foot as a valid strike, as this makes aiming low less of a penalty.

[quote=“Derek”]I also think we should accept arrow that slide along the ground and hit you foot as a valid strike, as this makes aiming low less of a penalty.[/quote]That sounds good to me as a way of reducing unintentional headshots. The only problem I can see is that in the middle of combat it might be awfully difficult to tell when an arrow hits your foot because someone just shot it at you, or because it was already on the ground and you accidentally kicked it while moving your foot. Just seems like it might mean arrows on the ground could kinda become like little landmines after being shot. Of course, if that’s what the GMs for a game want, then there’s no problem (it would probably have the bonus of encouraging people to take extra care to avoid standing on arrows, which would presumably help to improve the longevity of arrows).

There will always be difficulties judging if a blow or good or not.

Currently, if an arrow bounces off the ground and hits someone in the shin there is an undefined grey area in the rules where the player could reasonably think “If that arrow was real, it would have stuck into the ground, so I should obviously not take that blow”.

I’m suggesting that under those circumstances people should instead think “That archer was courteous enough to not aim at my head, even though that arrow bounced off the ground before it hit me, I am going to take that hit”.

It’s a subtle thing… :smiley:

I also just want to say- get your bow tested with a bow scale, don’t trust the word of a self-described archery safety expert who takes a look at your bow, gives it a pull and declares it safe.