Bullying, insults, and having a safe and inclusive community

Community Larp discussion
#21

[quote=“Walter Hamer”]Thanks Phillipa, excellent points.

On a related note, our community appears, from my perspective, little different to many other communities when it comes to letting women have a voice in discussions. Sometimes when I’m in a large group discussion I try to observe when people talk over other people, the speed at which people jump in with a comment, and which members of a mixed gender pairing receive the majority of eye-gazing and attentive behaviour. By far the majority of the time, interruptions tend to be done by men. Likewise, men tend to be in with a point within seconds of someone finishing their sentence, whereas women tend to come in after a pause of a few seconds (though this is slowly changing, at least in some cases). Attention usually goes to the male in a mixed gender couple, unless there is a specific reason to address the female. This is far more subtle than bullying or harassment, and even after years of trying not to I still find myself doing all of these things. I have to consciously try to let others speak, and not jump in with a point just because there is an opening. I believe it is partially within this context that inverting gendered norms becomes so difficult.[/quote]

Cue late night response!

Really spot on. I find that the females in Valeria get talked over or interrupted a lot, which we either react properly IC with a glare of “I’m sorry… what was that?”, or seem to just accept it because well… that is the norm.

A lot of ingrained tendencies and norms makes it so hard to reverse it. So that is why tropes are the easiest thing to call upon.
And as Pip said, perhaps if it makes you uncomfortable, change faction - because some of the cultures come with gender labels from the start.

I would be curious to see if this was attempted at future games of other campaigns and how it would be handled.

If a male within the community truly feels hard-done by because of discrimination of their gender, I think discussing it rather than actively fighting against it is a better way to handle it. What it has the potential to result in is some pretty heated interactions where one is trying to maintain their dominance, and the other is fighting to reclaim it (because they feel uncomfortable without it). A line is certainly crossed for anyone when something makes them uncomfortable. But figuring out why it makes you uncomfortable is a key to making sure the same sort of thing can be roleplayed, but in a different manner. If the players are all happy, I think the entire thing can be roleplayed with no one feeling hurt.
No, the females don’t have to be sexist a-holes to show their dominance. But in the real world, they still exist among both genders. There will be all types of …extremes, shall we say, that display this reverse concept. It just needs to be understood by all parties involved that this is what you signed up for as a culture.

A wider concern I hold though is that some people who perhaps have been mistreated as a result of their gender IRL could potentially get hurt by such actions. I feel that not too many voice that they are uncomfortable, and that it is a personal issue to them, so that should be encouraged more - for everybody.

#22

This one is an odd point to bring up. I admit, I’m not a big fan of costume prizes (or prizes at all) for cons. OTOH, I’m not sure what the solution is for this, or if it needs a solution. This is a matter of personal choice. Having nice kit =/= being a better class than someone, it’s a question of priorities. People might decide they want to spend more on kit and save on other luxuries. Also, I’ve seen people create amazing costumes from thrifted curtains and tablecloths. The means to turn these into something amazing -access to sewing machines, thread, skills, etc - may very well be outside people’s reach, I do acknowledge that. But I don’t think that’s any sort of actual discrimination.

"The dark side of this is that the absence of costume praising may be felt by those that are of less means. Worse, there is always the risk of costume shaming appearing (and if all you do is engage in conditional costume praising, you risk appearing as the silent approval of costume shaming). "

I completely disagree with this. A compliment exchanged within two people has nothing to do with anyone else. I might say to Bob, “I like your costume” but that doesn’t mean I endorse Steve saying to Brian (or implying) that his costume is shit. Again, expensive kit =/= kit that I or anyone else might find attractive. Yes costume praising is conditional, but so is all the other types of praise we engage in- sword fighting, role playing or even staying behind and helping clean up.

" We have for a long time had an NPC and PC class of participants. Certainly many people drift between the two classes, but one is definitely seen as more prestigious."

This is a completely separate issue IMO. It’s an attitude that is harmful and needs to be stamped on hard whenever it comes up, but it’s not directly linked to class. Or costuming. Some people do prefer perma-crewing, and that’s not due to money, that’s due to the type of experience they enjoy in larping.

I don’t believe praising costume is any sort of class discrimination. I’m not sure there’s any real “solution” here either, as we’re all adults and we do know that not everyone has money, time or inclination to spend money on costume. I think people are also mature enough to realise that people aren’t having good costumes at them.

#23

While a mature response is, as you say, to recognise peoples different levels, there can sometimes be pressure to have a great costume when it is outside your means/expertise. I know that I have felt some of the unspoken pressure of some of the amazing kit that people invest in. Even when I have done the same myself. I just try to let it go, since I’m very happy with my level of kit, but I can imagine some people finding it harder. There has been cases in the past of outright bullying - I think it was of the cuff - but as with other of the cuff bullying it can still hurt.

#24

Probably making it explicit that “great costume = great, bullying people over costume = bad” would have made it fit better.

#25

Hmm, fair points. I definitely agree that I conflated two separate issues there.

I treat time+skill and money as roughly the same thing: personal resources expended for game related results. To that extent training at LARP combat fighting or other LARP related skills are also of this class of thing. The NZLARPs gear library and gear provided by games or community members are all great ways of giving everyone access to sufficiently good kit. Usually we structure our games so that everyone can have a range of character options that are within their out of character skills to do, and sometimes abilities to make up for lack of out of character skill. We also have some games (e.g. white wolf and many theatreform games) where little out of character skill is needed at all.

I have seen a fair amount of costume critiquing. I have also seen more than a little costume shaming, both specific (though behind the person’s back) and in general (“that’s not up to our game’s standard of kit”). Sneakers in fantasy settings have been scorned for a long time, but getting some nondescript dark shoes is, I think, doable for most people. The positive sides of costume critiquing is helping people make better stuff, or loaning costumes and props. I have seen this happen, particularly with newcomers, and it can be a really positive thing for all involved.

Perhaps I’d agree that we don’t really have a class problem with kit in our community, but I do maintain that it could encroach on us. Minimum standards of costuming are already quite high. If we get more pedantic than we already are, game prices go up too much, and we lose access to resources like gear libraries (community and personal), we may price many out of our hobby. I have heard several prospective LARPers worry about the cost of joining, and for the most part we are able to alleviate this, but that may not always be the case.

The issue of crew and PC is sort of a different type of class discrimination - it is one of type rather than resources. Discrimination happens when those of one type expect the game to be biased in favour of their fun; that one becomes a tool of the other. I think this happens a lot more with PC’s expecting NPC’s to cater to their LARP experience (and NPC’s expecting to just be used or otherwise ignored by PC’s) - extractive story telling rather than collaborative story telling. The reverse can also happen, where the focus is solely on the NPC’s.

#26

[quote=“Walter Hamer”]
The issue of crew and PC is sort of a different type of class discrimination - it is one of type rather than resources. Discrimination happens when those of one type expect the game to be biased in favour of their fun; that one becomes a tool of the other. I think this happens a lot more with PC’s expecting NPC’s to cater to their LARP experience (and NPC’s expecting to just be used or otherwise ignored by PC’s) - extractive story telling rather than collaborative story telling. The reverse can also happen, where the focus is solely on the NPC’s.[/quote]

This I do agree with, wholeheartedly. This is a pervasive attitude, and the sooner it’s stamped out the better. I’ve heard of people saying “Oh, but they’re just crew” which I would have had a very strong reply to that.

I think one of the problems here is that we are limited to our own experiences, and without more voices its very hard to say “actually yeah this is a problem” rather than “it has been my experience that…” - That’s not to say that this isn’t a discussion worth having, because it always is. So maybe we should all do caveats of: this has been my experience.

I do remember one incidence of costume related snarkishness that hurt, but then I’ve been lucky, from the sounds of it.

The thing about unspoken pressure, however, as wrong as it is there’s nothing really you can do to combat it. People who hold those views are unlikely to change them. Or, the onus is on us to call that out and challenge that culture ourselves. Or not bow to the pressure.

I think the off-the- cuff bullying is again something that needs to clamped down upon and shut down straight away. But then, people also need to stand up for themselves and be honest about those feelings. As Pip said up thread, it’s not always said with malicious intent, and its best to say rather than stew. But then I do acknowledge that would be hard for a newcomer to do that. And so on and so on - these discussions can get rather circular.

I’d be interested to hear what solutions you have to the issue of costuming pressure. My own thoughts is that -again, as long as it doesn’t conflict with the NZ Larps code of conduct- GMs are perfectly within their rights to ask for a certain kind of costuming standard within their game, on the condition that they are willing to help people who don’t have the kit. Empire Larps, for example, sets out there costume standards here, which I think sounds pretty reasonable. profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Costume

It feels so bizarre talking about costume standards, though. Especially since I tend to write or run (on purpose) low costume games.

#27

I’d skip the last bit. Yes, its good practice, especially in “mass-market” larps, and I think Empire’s solutions here are great, but not a requirement IMHO. If a GM wants to run an ambitious, immersive, high costume game (e.g. the Regency weekend larp I dream of), then that’s their prerogative. If they can get the players, all power to them. And its the same if they want to run any other sort of ambitious game (e.g. Bad Dreams, or Witch House).

As for NZLARPS’ role in this, our objective is to encourage and promote all types of larps. If we start going “no, you can’t demand high costume, you must check your costume privilege”, that would both be contrary to the purposes of the society, and IMHO undermine our relevance.

#28

I’d skip the last bit. Yes, its good practice, […]

As for NZLARPS’ role in this, our objective is to encourage and promote all types of larps. If we start going “no, you can’t demand high costume, you must check your costume privilege”, that would both be contrary to the purposes of the society, and IMHO undermine our relevance.[/quote]

I think that yes, a game should feel free to have costume requirements (and not feel required to help people meet them), but also that one thing the society can do is be like ‘hey so you don’t have to offer to help people with costuming, but if you are interested in that, then NZLARPS can see what we can do to help you help players’.

As for costuming elitism besides that - telling people they shouldn’t compliment people on great kit is dumb. The way to counteract costuming elitism in the group as a whole is to make sure you give positive feedback to people for making an effort at all, not to withhold giving more praise to people who do great things. Looking great (and standing out) is awesome! But you can counter the ‘and everyone else feels bad’ by making sure you encourage people in general, without tall-poppy syndromeing at good costuming, or making people feel bad for telling their friends their new costume looks amazing.

#29

As for crew-related discrimination - I have feelings about crew/player dynamic at the moment. Ensuring people don’t mistreat crew is important - they are equal participants in the game, they are here to have fun as well. And we definitely should be encouraging more people to try their hand at crew first. It is a good way to get used to larp without the pressures of PCing, and you don’t have to worry about getting bored or not having anything to do.

But I also think that, that said, there are problems with how the two are treated differently, period. There are players who treat crew as just there to make their game, but just as much there are plenty of crew who fall into the ‘the PCs are the enemy, it is my job to defeat them (not just in combat - any situation where a crew member is in a role which is antagonistic to players, openly or non)’ mindset. This is not the (new) crew’s fault - it is a persistent cultural thing. And it is probably not helped by PCs treating crew like they are there to aid the players’ enjoyment. But it leads to both sides treating the other like an enemy, rather than collaborative storytelling. And while I accept that people like to win - I like to win, and I can be plenty competitive myself - you don’t have to play to lose, to play to enable everyone to have fun.

So unlike costuming, I think there really is an issue with crew/PC distinction, and one which needs to be dealt with because if it is not, then it will only grow, as people who think this way will bring more people into the hobby and allow them to think the same. But it is not a class distinction - rather, a general cultural issue. Even some people who play both sometimes PCs and other times crew, buy into the ‘we are here to defeat the crew/the players’ shit from whichever side!

It is an issue that is at core, perhaps, people being competitive OOC when they should be competitive IC?

#30

Absolutely - NZLARPS also has purposes of sharing knowledge around best practice - not to mention around costuming itself. And sensible GMs who want people to attend high-costume games will want to give advice (again, see Empire) or provide info on sources of appropriate costume.

FWIW, I think Crucible has shown that you can successfully run a large, high-costume game in NZ. People put a tremendous amount of work into their kit, both individually and as a faction (so you have distinct “looks” for some factions) - and it is great to see. Not every game needs to be like that, but I am glad that someone is doing it, and the fact that someone is doing it will make it easier for other people to do it in the future (because people have the kit). See also “World That Is”.

#31

[quote=“Vespers”]But I also think that, that said, there are problems with how the two are treated differently, period. There are players who treat crew as just there to make their game, but just as much there are plenty of crew who fall into the ‘the PCs are the enemy, it is my job to defeat them (not just in combat - any situation where a crew member is in a role which is antagonistic to players, openly or non)’ mindset. This is not the (new) crew’s fault - it is a persistent cultural thing. And it is probably not helped by PCs treating crew like they are there to aid the players’ enjoyment. But it leads to both sides treating the other like an enemy, rather than collaborative storytelling. And while I accept that people like to win - I like to win, and I can be plenty competitive myself - you don’t have to play to lose, to play to enable everyone to have fun.

So unlike costuming, I think there really is an issue with crew/PC distinction, and one which needs to be dealt with because if it is not, then it will only grow, as people who think this way will bring more people into the hobby and allow them to think the same. But it is not a class distinction - rather, a general cultural issue. Even some people who play both sometimes PCs and other times crew, buy into the ‘we are here to defeat the crew/the players’ shit from whichever side![/quote]

Could not agree with you more. On all counts. As the Crew Coord for Crucible I am CONSTANTLY reminding my lambs that is isn’t “us vs them” we are not out to “win” and we don’t have to “beat” the players. A lot of the time this is successful. Sometimes it’s not. Not by a long shot to my shame. I’m extremely competitive and it can be hard to not take that line myself some days. But we try :slight_smile: I do have to say though, for myself, it’s VERY hard not to enable that mentality sometimes. I have, quite literally, seen some players mocking the crew after a fight scene “Lol, you couldn’t even touch me, you guys suck, I don’t even have a scratch on me” … that one is an actual quote that I witnesses take place. Going back tothe crew room and telling everyone involved to take some big deep breaths, shake it off, we’re here to to tell a story with the players etc, wasn’t easy by any stretch. For the record, I’ve also seen the crew do some pretty shitty things too, and they got told ALL about my feelings on that.

In other respects, it’s hard not to angry as a crew member. There are a few people now I’ve seen saying “They’re only NPC’s”, “They’re just crew, not real players” and my personal favourite "Well if they paid as much as I do … ". I’m very very protective of my people, they’re good people for the most part, and deserve my support. They work their asses of in that game! I constantly have crew missing meals (and being told they’re only crew, so go to the back of the line!), missing sleep, being exhausted and partially dehydrated from all the running around. Lol, we set up mattresses for puppy piles by Saturday and wake them up as we need people. Pay as much as you do? You get to do as you please, you control yourself, when you eat, when you drink, what you get involved in or not, how much effort you put in and when you sleep. My boys and girls don’t have those luxuries.

Ok, rant over. Sorry. More inclusion, more “our people” at a game. Crew & NPC’s are people too tiredly waves flag

#32

I am with you Robbo!
I think the best way to change things on the crew/players front is just keep on spreading the word and culture as best we can.

I think one of the best mindsets to get in is the ‘we are all humans’ mentality - ok it doesn’t work for when fight literal monsters or zombies, but lets all agree that that is a part of a game in which the players will always want to win (not that they necessarily should win every time).

Especially when playing a healer I try to treat crew and player alike - I will heal them all. But at the last Crucible game I went up to a crew member to heal them and they said “don’t worry, I’m crew”. I was really disappointed, especially because I started out larping crewing and I always found that the most fun is when you make soldier number 5 a real person.

One of the ways in which we can combat this antagonism is engaing with crew. You don’t have to do it all the time, but I know how frustrating it is as crew when you go into the games with plot and the players just don’t care. I’m not saying that the players shouldn’t be smart (so fall into traps or not be prepared) but always erring on the side of being a generous roleplayer is a good thing. If your character doesn’t have time send them to another player. It also means you are giving back to the GMs and engaging in the plot they have spent the long hours writing.

#33

I must admit that I find it really hard to have any real interest in NPC’s that are likely to appear for a few minutes and then disappear never to be seen again. Indeed, as a PC I have been burned a couple of times at some events with NPC scammer characters that come in, fool my character, then disappear into the untraceable world of the crew room. Being made risk-averse to interacting with crew is easy to do; being rewarded for treating NPC’s equally takes effort (and makes a later scam glorious, not off-putting).

The implication with PC type characters is that there will always be the chance of future encounters with them, so there is a reason to invest in a relationship (even if it is just a cursory interaction). Recurring NPC roles are much easier to treat like equal characters, even if they are the lowliest status or only come back once or twice more.

Combat bragging is another thing I do, and on reflection my behaviour has probably contributed to OOC competitiveness in combats.

#34

Forgot about that one. Shall make an effort to address the issue for this coming game. Thanks Prema! I’m sorry it worked out this way, but now it’s an opportunity to increase the RP of crucible’s crew and then everyone’s game :slight_smile:

#35

[quote=“Lokisson”][quote=“Lady Prema”]
Especially when playing a healer I try to treat crew and player alike - I will heal them all. But at the last Crucible game I went up to a crew member to heal them and they said “don’t worry, I’m crew”. I was really disappointed, especially because I started out larping crewing and I always found that the most fun is when you make soldier number 5 a real person.
[/quote]

Forgot about that one. Shall make an effort to address the issue for this coming game. Thanks Prema! I’m sorry it worked out this way, but now it’s an opportunity to increase the RP of crucible’s crew and then everyone’s game :slight_smile:[/quote]

Just make sure crew know they don’t have to lie in the cold ground to the point of hypothermia while players ignore them! Having a corpse-strewn field is awesome, but damn it gets cold fast. Perhaps leave a representative sample of wounded from all sides of a fight, from crew that feel like roleplaying with healers? Or dish out disease tokens if active effort is not put into corpse removal after a battle?

#36

[quote=“Walter Hamer”]
Just make sure crew know they don’t have to lie in the cold ground to the point of hypothermia while players ignore them! Having a corpse-strewn field is awesome, but damn it gets cold fast. Perhaps leave a representative sample of wounded from all sides of a fight, from crew that feel like roleplaying with healers? Or dish out disease tokens if active effort is not put into corpse removal after a battle?[/quote]

All great ideas and taken to heart, Walter. :smiley:

#37

[quote=“Lokisson”][quote=“Lady Prema”]
Especially when playing a healer I try to treat crew and player alike - I will heal them all. But at the last Crucible game I went up to a crew member to heal them and they said “don’t worry, I’m crew”. I was really disappointed, especially because I started out larping crewing and I always found that the most fun is when you make soldier number 5 a real person.
[/quote]

Forgot about that one. Shall make an effort to address the issue for this coming game. Thanks Prema! I’m sorry it worked out this way, but now it’s an opportunity to increase the RP of crucible’s crew and then everyone’s game :slight_smile:[/quote]

I don’t mind at all - its only one moment in a game - I was just sad for the crew member because we were both missing out.

As Walter has mentioned above, I do think NPCs that you can build up a relationship with often give the most reward. Not that all NPCs need to be recurring, but it can be a helpful mentality to go in to a game as an NPC as if you are a real person.

#38

I totally agree with the comments around being careful how you abuse other characters IC, and to keep it IC (IdiotSavant’s links were very useful too).

I thought the whole point of playing a male in Valeria is to experience a tiny bit of the sexism inherently extant in our society ? Perhaps one way of dissuading the male characters who insist on maintaining OOC sexist practices (e.g. interrupting women speakers) would be to visit severe reprimand on the offending parties.

An interesting aspect of this thread is the conceptualisation of the tension relative to class around player vs crew. I do both and I see the paradigm as being akin to eating fish. If you want, you can be a fisherperson and invest lots money in gear, and time in going fishing and catch that fish. Or you can go to the supermarket and buy the same fish. Either way, you get to enjoy eating the fish (and it still tastes the same). It is harder for the players to have a good time without the crew, although I understand the us vs them dynamics, and can see why some players would cat-call when they thought they had got one over the crew.

The reality is that the players are only ever one GM decision away from certain doom, and it’s all about balance. In a lot of campaign larps I have seen players move from PC to crew when their PC dies, which creates a cross-pollination of contextual larp experience, but in Crucible the PCs generally have the option of resurrecting, so I wonder if this is a dynamic that has increased the sense of impermeable social distinction between PCs and crew (and hence promoted a sense of tribalism) ?

#39

I don’t. This simply has not been part of my crew experience in Wellington. Neither has the sneering, the dismissive attitude, or the “us vs them” approach. While I’m sure there have been occasional incidents - everyone has a bad day or gets competitive once in a while - in my experience (some 33AR, and mandatory crewing for Kingdom) has been positive: the crew understand that we are there to help the players have fun (sometimes by making them cry, but that’s fun they ask for), and the players value us for it. As for NPCs you will never see again, many of 33AR’s NPCs (e.g. the forest folk) were quickly-created crew roles which became institutions. So, without wanting to discount the relaity of the problem, it may orimarily be an Auckland thing.

#40

Even if that is the case, with this sort of cultural issue cropping up in the biggest current-running campaign - a game which does draw players (if not usually crew, because… well, for various reasons some of which may be better than others, people don’t travel the length of the island to crew, much) from other cities - it could easily become an entrenched cultural issue in the entire community, especially as new members are brought in, learn the culture as it is, and begin to pass it on to even newer members. The longer it is left to fester the harder it is to fix, basically.

You would think that, wouldn’t you. It is one of the things which drew me to the faction, definitely. However, that does not seem to be the case for many other males who have joined the faction. Dealing with it is… difficult, because, to take your suggested solution as an example - LARP being something we each participate in voluntarily, the power to discipline someone’s PC actually relies on them being OOC willing to be IC disciplined. Note that people who do not have buy-in to the setting and background also often do not have buy-in to the organisation and faction structure.

EDIT:

I am not sure how much of it is actual tribalism and how much is a culture of OOC competitiveness. I have definitely noted individuals who have been on both sides of the crew/player divide, either both during Crucible, or in one camp in Crucible but who have been in the other in previous larps, exhibiting this sort of behavior.