Actually, if I said nibbles wouldn’t work because one of the DLLs clashed with a hardware driver, what’d you say to that?
“Teach me more, or point me to a useful reference.”
Don’t tell!
Damnit, I proved that concept on another machine… getting the software guy in on Tuesday to have a looksie. Probably just a case of reinstalling the drivers and carefully configuring 'em. There’s more tests we haven’t done with that problem.
Point of clarification
When I said ignore the points you didn’t agree with, I didn’t intend to prevent constructive criticism. Feedback when worded positively is always better received than not.
I was attempting to disable the negativity feeders.
Also I was trying to remove the “this idea is a better way” which I don’t much like. Its about acknowledging the other persons ideas as valid before showing your point of view.
It may sound touchy feely but I would hope this approach would improve the outcomes of all Diatribe discussion.
Ideally when approaching something you wish to challenge it would start with something like "While your idea may work, have you considered doing it A way instead of B way because of these merits (of A)?“
Not always easy but it is possible to get people to see your point of view without saying “my way is better” or " your way is wrong because”.
Still everyone is entitled to an off day occasionally I guess.
Jared
I’ve been thinking about this thread. I understand the question of “that’s very well in theory, but how does it work in practice?” behind the request. But I’m not sure how to respond, because it either seems trivial, too complex, or just the wrong question depending on how I approach it.
Dogme99
This manifesto discussion started with Dogme99. If you read that manifesto, I think it’s obvious how you could run a larp with it. You just get a bunch of players in a situation that exactly resembles the venue you’re using, give them rough briefings, and let them go. The quality of the larp that results will depend on the quality of the players and the setup. There are no mechanics, and there is no organisation work to be done during the larp.
My only comment on the “how to” front is to make sure that you’ve got a situation that those players are going to be interested in exploring. So you either need to know your players well, invent the setup in consultation with them, or advertise the situation and hope you’ll get enough players interested. For example, I might be interested in a larp with Trainspotting vibes set in a grungy flat full of druggies on the dole with twisted relationships. Or I might not, but someone else probably would be. I guess that’s true for all larp, but perhaps especially important for Dogme99 where setup is everything.
So in terms of a Dogme99 larp I think it’s obvious how you’d run it because the manifesto is so restrictive and minimalist, I can’t think of how to spell it out any more clearly than the manifesto does already. I terms of this thread, it simply doesn’t apply. Pure Dogme99 cannot be used to run medieval fantasy. However if you’re willing to bend a few of the rules about physical representation, it can do fantasy. Many fantasy larps in Nordic countries (some of which have hundreds of players) resemble Dogme99 more than they resemble Mordavia, for example. They are not pure Dogme99, but they do show how the values of a manifesto can be a useful aid to design without having to be followed slavishly.
Immersionism
The next thing I think is that I have a personal ideal that I’d like to play a lot of larps in. I’d call it an immersionist approach, but it’s not really what’s described in the Turku School. The sole tenet is to maximise the players’ sense of being in an alternate reality, while still allowing for unusual fictions. To personalise it further, I’d prefer it to maximise opportunities for character drama, I’d want it to be entirely improvised, and I’d like it to help people to learn things about the real world and real people. But that would be more like “The Ryan Manifesto” and probably of limited use to other people.
In terms of methods of attaining that Immersionist ideal, my preference is for rules that require minimum thought or discussion during play (because they distract from the fiction), custom-designed settings that don’t require distracting rules to be emulated, and physical representation (costume/FX/props/sets/etc) that is as close to the fiction as possible to physically draw players into the setting.
To could go into detailed design for such a larp would be complex and a lot of work, more than I can commit to for this thread. Besides, any example would just be one possible implementation. I’d say if you want a look at the design process for an immersionist fantasy larp (sans NPCs as such), look at No Man’s Land. But it’s only one example.
Fantasia
But then I look at the question in the topic, and I see it’s asking about ideals and how to fulfil them. While I’d like to play lots of immersionist larp, I would also like to play other styles and not get stuck in a rut of only one approach. In that sense, my only ideal is variety.
For example, below is a sketch for another manifesto and the methodology of applying it to a fantasy larp. My point here is that I don’t see any manifesto as the “one true way” to larp, just as an instruction manual for a certain style. In this sense, the question is a wrong question in that it’s asking people to expand on “their” manifesto. I’d be equally happy running or playing many other styles, and manifestos can help explain styles I hadn’t thought of and the value of them.
[size=134]Make Believe Manifesto[/size]
Make believe itself needs no manifesto. This manifesto is intended to maximise the inherent value of the make-believe inherent within larp, while maintaining the value of structure that larp can add to a game of pretend. These ideals promote a populist larp that interest players from a young age while maintaining an ideal of quality.
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Larp is a type of make believe. A child’s game of make believe is fantastic because it allows exploration of wondrous fiction without limits. The First Ideal shall be to recapture this sense of wonder in the larp format.
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Larp takes make believe and adds structure. Structure provides consistency, but it also puts boundaries on the imagination. The Second Ideal shall be to add just enough structure to make-believe to allow for consistent play and no more, while still leaving players free to invent wherever possible to fulfill the First Ideal. The structure should not slow down the larp or get in the way of playing one’s character.
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Make believe is usually fun, light, and suitable to children. The Third Ideal is that the content of the larp shall be light-spirited and unrestrained by concerns of silliness. While drama has its place and darker events could occur so long as they are rated G, humour will have a place in any situation and good will always triumph.
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A few nice props and costumes and props when playing pretend help establish the wonder of the fiction. The Fourth Ideal asks for physical representation to capture the fiction as well as possible, while not making onerous demands for exact representation that may reduce some organisers or player’s fun. Where possible gear shall be shared around to create the best overall effect, and all shall be encouraged to improve but not punished for their current efforts.
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Much like in playing pretend the best larp is the one your mate runs, and the best person to play with is your other mate. The Fifth ideal is that the larp shall be easy for anyone to run, including children so that they don’t need an adult to run it for them.
So, that’s the sketch of one possible manifesto that I’d happily run or play larp within if I only had time for more. And here’s an implementation of it for fantasy:
[size=134]Fantasia[/size]
A Make Believe Manifesto Larp
So, obviously I can’t write up a whole larp here. But I’ll try to get across the idea. This is a larp concept I’ve been thinking about for a while and will write up in full some day.
Fantasia is a light fantasy larp inspired by fantasy media aimed at children, but is playable by anyone. It could be used to create larps that resemble anything from Labyrinth and Shrek to My Little Pony and The Smurfs. It emphasises adventure and romance in wonderous locations, all within a framework of light-hearted and irreverent comedy.
First, character creation. Players will be able create almost any race of character to play. This follows the First Ideal about minimising limits on imagination. However, there will be broad character racial types and players will choose the best one to create their specific character type within. For example, some of the types might be Animalia (animals, talking animals, mythical animals, and animal-like people), Toys (artificial things like clockwork people and living puppets), Haunters (undead and shadowy things), etc, with some sort of catch-all called something like Wonders for anything that doesn’t fit the other types. You create a character by choosing a type and buying attributes from a list available to that type. They will also be able to spend points on equipment and magic.
Characters will not usually increase in power, but they can trade in points and re-spend them on something else to represent character changes. This can also allow them to transform completely in a magical manner, for example from a cursed beast into a prince when their curse is raised, which can happen during events. They can also lend points to another player for a game they are both playing at, to temporarily boost that character’s power. Organisers may also give players temporary bonus points as rewards to characters who volunteered to play baddies at previous events.
Mechanics will be as light as possible to be understandable by kids. Combat shall involve foam weapons (playing at sword-fighting is a classic example of make-believe). Winners shall “defeat” their opponents but not kill them unless the loser wishes to die, to maintain the light-hearted spirit of pretend and ensuring that good always triumphs in the end.
Magic shall be extremely simple, to be accessible to young players. A list of about 10 simple spell effects will be available to buy from, but it’s up to the players how they describe how the effect is happening for their spell. For example, a spell might be called “Trap” and make an opponent immoble, however one player might describe it as creating a quicksand to trap the target, and another might describe it as shackles that appear locking the target to the ground. Players will have chits or items (e.g. power crystals) that are spent to cast the spell, limiting the number of casts per event. They can buy more chits at character creation.
At each event there will be a pool of Baddie points available for building villains and their minions, based on the number of players playing characters at the event. Players can choose not to play their character at an event and to play a bad guy instead. Baddies can be killed/destroyed if the winner wants to, so long as the organisers have declared it possible at that event. Powerful baddies can be created using a bunch of Bad Guy points and may reoccur across multiple events. Minor baddies with low creation costs can usually be destroyed, but more powerful baddies with higher creation costs may always survive defeat until the organisers decide they can be defeated (like Shredder in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon, they always seem to miraculously escape). The number of escapes they have up their sleeves may depend on the points spend on them. Minor baddies will be of the cookie-cutter variety, and so long as there are Baddie Points remaining and players willing to play them they can be played as an endless stream of cannon fodder.
Each event will also have a pool of Helpful points, based on how many players are attending. The people playing baddies can also play Helpful Characters that may lend their aid to player characters and give or lend gifts of helpful Items items purchased with these points. For characters to keep these items at later events the player would have to re-assign character points into them. Because players won’t know whether someone is playing a baddie or a helpful character, they also won’t know if they are a treacherous baddie in disguise (like Jareth in Labyrinth) or a fundamentally helpful character that appears like they might be unhelpful or treacherous (like Hoggle). The organisers of the event may have already written up all the baddies and helpful characters before the event with briefings, or they may allow players to come up with their own ideas of what to play too.
The rules will come with a default setting and a number of example scenarios and characters, to make it as easy as possible for young organisers to start running events.
The setting will be extremely flexible, allowing for sub-creation of races and so forth. For example, there would be an Animalia Kingdom where all kinds of talking animals and animal-people live, with some examples given but room for anything to be added. There would be a broadly-described setting-level conflict between good and evil kingdoms of the land. Numerous groups would be described without going into details of their members, to allow player characters to fill the ranks of important groups such as a council ruling a light kingdom and a group of heroic “knights” (of all races) that are champions of the combined good kingdoms. The setting would be rife with opportunities for dramatic romance, a perennial favourite of girl’s make-believe and children’s fantasy in general (see Shrek, The Dark Crystal, etc), for example in the form of marriages between the many princes and princesses of the good kingdoms. The setting will explain the source of magic and why you need to expend magic crystals (or whatever) to cast it.
The included scenarios will be fairly generic to allow for player characters to be added, and come complete with briefings for baddies and helpful characters. More scenarios will be created as supplements to support the community of organisers.
So, that’s about as good an answer as I can manage. The point of the last item is that while Fantasia may not be my ideal larp to play in, I believe that it would fill a very valuable place in the “ecology” of available larps and many people would get a lot of fulfillment from it. Thus I can support the principals of the Make Believe Manifesto and appreciate larps based on it without being fixated on it as a universal ideal.
I think manifestos are like cooking recipes. Just because someone writes a recipe for chocolate cake, that doesn’t mean it’s the only sort of food they like. But if it’s a good recipe and other people understand it and follow it, they might be able to make some really good chocolate cake. Then everyone who like chocolate cake can eat it and get it all over their faces, and be happy. So a manifesto can be good and useful, without being “the one true way”.
And now I’m hungry for chocolate cake.
So why do people bother with manifesto’s? Why not just put out rulebooks?
Because they are different things. A manifesto is a set of design principals that a rulebook can be based on, to achieve the particular style of larp described in the manifesto.
One manifesto can be the inspiration for many different larps, and people can interpret a more vague manifesto (unlike Dogme99, which is very specific) in various ways. Someone could take the Make Believe Manifesto and create something very different from Fantasia.
Wouldn’t that make a manifesto more like a list of general cooking rules (no GE food, no pork, wash hands before starting etc) and the rule book more like a recipe?
Sorry, but the whole manifesto conversation reminds me of a lot of discussions programmers have which are rabid, border on the religious and of very little actual merit.
Bugger me.
What you have laid out is good. It is pretty much what I wanted to see from this discussion.
Fantasia sounds like a fun larp without just being for kiddies.
It has some strong similarities with Quest, which is a point buy system and is of course a fantasy system.
In response to a point you’ve made, I was looking to see how the people of Diatribes would apply dogma or manifesto style ideals to a larp they would like to create or have created, not how does Dogma99 work for fantasy.
Cheers for the effort Ryan
Jared
In response to Derek,
Thats why I wanted some meat (EDIT: or vegetables or whatever) to go with the whole recipe thing.
I’ve seen the manifestos, and the dogma, I wanted to see something cooked with it, even if its just a taste tester!
I hope I’m not the only one benefiting from all this.
Jared
I guess you’ve got me there, my metaphor was very approximate. It never pays to analysis a maetaphor too closely (the map is not the territory), but perhaps the manifesto is like a general guideline for a style of cuisine (Japanese, Italian, Euro-health, etc) with a list of what ingredients and cooking methods are appropriate for that style. Then people can make recipes (larp rules) based on it and people can cook their own meals (larps) from those recipes. When someone asks “do you like Dogme99” it’s like asking “do you like Chinese food?” The answer might be yes, no, or it depends what sort.
I know what you mean.
But many larpers think that the way they’re doing larp is the only way before they read or write any manifesto. They think Vampire or NERO or whatever is the One True Way. They think all larp must be fun, or must create stories, or whatever. When they read a larp manifesto, they may realise that there are other ways and what the reasons are. Which might open their minds, or might just piss them off. It’s the pissed-offness that we’re seeing here I think and that’s causing a stir, as it usually does. Which makes people read the manifestos, so propagates them.
So I see manifestos having the opposite effect to what you describe, in the long run. Once the emotions die down, most people are left with the take-home message that there are more things under the sun than they realised.
What was I thinking?
I can only say that some manifestos have value to me as inspirational material, all the rest is over-analysis I think.