The ethics of killing

Community Larp discussion
#9

Agreed on pretty much most of what has been said.

Trying not to stair the conversation purely to Teonn, but being that it IS the biggest game atm, i think it would be tough.

A lot of the fighters have the appropriate background to callously kill and slaughter… well basically anyone, but i think if every bandit we came across had finishing blow, combat would be an entirely different story.

I would be a minority who would want that, because i know a lot of people put time and effort in to their backgrounds, costumes, character relationships etc but then you’re drawing some hazy lines regardless.

Where do you draw the line between: player death/player killing npc/costume and background prep vs when it is ok to throw in the amount of killing and killing blows npcs have. How realistic do we wanna get? Because if it were for realism it would be that every NPC has a killing blow if they have a sharp weapon.

Again i personally would LOVE this type of combat, so that people wouldn’t storm off and go bandit hunting, but its not for everyone - and at the end of the day if the majority prefer to just kill hapless bandits, then thats the way the game will go.

Although i do remember having a brilliant scene from the Knightshade we went to, with a bandit that we reformed by letting him borrow my chars families farm and become a farmer - this was awesome, and my less than capable character much preferred the idea of a chat over a fight.

Again, at the end of the day we can’t really tell people how to rp - if they wanna go boff stuff for the sake of boffing stuff, they paid and its their right.

/pointless post.

#10

I disagree, not pointless, you kinda Tahariel’d the main issue there. (Ie, fired a ton of bullets at the target and hit, thanks to probability. Ok, enough jesting.)

The mentioned issue is the consequence. There’s been a discussion on this recently in some of the circles I roll in, and it’s consequence of actions, specifically, killing.
As Jackie rightly puts it, it’s a little bit of the OOC/IC blur when we as players go a-bandit-hunting, but I would suggest that that blur happens more often than that. We can’t help but think, on some level, that ‘we are the players, they are the NPCs’, and as such a part of our mindset views them as expendable. This is regardless of whether they are actually a long term NPC or random gribble monster, our perception of their value means that we treat them as someone we can kill.
Jordan’s desire for a combat in which every sharp-weapon wielding, clawed, poison-tentacled, vicious adversary has the ability to permanently kill is difficult to implement. It does however solve the issue of we the player’s perception of those we deal with - the consequences of going fighting are potentially much more dire. The NPC, regardless of who/what, is now a threat to our well being, and as such we now think more carefully before dismissing them as expendable, or killable.
The ‘us versus them’ is a mentality that can’t be completely shaken off in my opinion, but it, like all facets of roleplaying, is something found in varying degrees from larper to larper. Anna’s right in that you can’t force anyone to roleplay something they aren’t interested in, but as her cat herder senses no doubt suggest, there are some ways to guide the general atmosphere of a game to the morality/ethics you want. Even then…

As a general rule, for myself, in whatever game, death, and by extension murder, are themes I often find my characters exploring. As such, most of the time in game, the ethics of killing are something on my mind, something I use larp to explore, hopefully challenging not only my preconceptions, but the conceptions of others as well.

#11

Mid fantasy larps such as teonn and knightshade can be compaired to books and films in the same genre.

See also: Game of thrones.

#12

While I understand Jackie’s musings, I think for many people it’s nice to role play situations that are a bit more black and white than real life. To have a problem that can be solved with a sword without over thinking it.

I’d like to see the way we deal with PC and NPC death get a little closer together though…

#13

Personally, I think its largely a combination of what people have already mentioned, a lack of consequences (as in, the worst that can happen to a player is that they end up having to wait for a healing character to come along), and the us-vs-them mentality (and the perception of all NPCs as expendable). I also think Derek and Xcerus make good points, namely that at some games, particularly fantasy games, it is perhaps to be expected and maybe even appropriate that there is a more cavalier attitude towards the subject. And I entirely expect a bunch of basically mindless monsters that seem to just be attacking without any obvious reason would be slaughtered without a second thought.

The only thing I think I can really contribute to the conversation is the suggestion of an idea, which I imagine has probably already floated around before, that perhaps a handful of experienced crew members should be issued a killing blow at the start of the weekend, that last across characters, which are to be used only when appropriate. As in, if someone does decide they’re going to go hunt some bandits in the woods at night by themselves for the fun of it, there’s a bit more of a chance of it backfiring really badly, but if the town/fort/whatever gets attacked by rampaging crew and there’s a full-on battle raging and someone is unlucky enough to be the first player dropped, they’re highly unlikely to be bumped off (because you wouldn’t stop to finish someone off when their friend is standing there with a sword). I’m not really sure if this is a good idea or not.

#14

Are we talking care more about npc death or care less about pc death… or both? > X <

I must confess the attachment to characters thing still confuses me greatly. I guess the only comparison I can draw is to a beloved character from a book dying? Even then I expect it 90% of the time. So perhaps a long running character in a tv series or fiction anthology?

Don’t get me wrong - real world loss I get. Be it a pet fish or a parent I totally understand grief for a lost loved one.

But a character you made up to live in a dark fantasy world filled with dragons, angry monsters and backstabbing bandits… how are you suprised that your character died? If anything it’s the players own fault for putting it into that universe in the first place.

I for one would not put my pet mouse in a chainmail shirt and send her to war with the cat army in the forest and expect her to survive…

If I want her to live a long and happy life then she can stay nice and safe with her friends and eat tasty tasty litebread - that way the worst that can happen is she gets fat. However she does have a wheel to run in.

<< btw the above =/= trolling / flaming. It may be spelt bad an stuff but I have had no sleep + go go codene! so… sorry if I offend. I am going to bed now… I hope >>
Hopefully I will be back later with more productive stuff and things.

Need mouse armor! To Redwall!

#15

It’s all about the story. The players are the protagonists and even in the same setting we have a myriad of different stories. Some of our stories involve not wanting to kill anymore, others are more like crusaders, let God sort em out. I am a very firm believer that a player death should be a good finish to their story arc. Sometimes it is tragic, sometimes it is heroic. The death needs to be good. It is not just a character that dies, it’s a story. Granted some stories live beyond their death and make big impacts on other stories.

Most bandits and suchlike lack a story, or share just one collective story. In their own way they let the character define themselves on how they interact. Killing them heedlessly can turn a warrior into a cold hearted Crusader, into a monster or turn them more heroic. When we come to interact with the horde of screaming bandits we choose which way we take and how we react.

#16

I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone’s responses! Thanks very much :smiley: Though as Jordan pointed out this wasn’t meant to be exclusively about Teonn - I think it’s something that can come up in any game.

[quote=“Uncle Vanya”]
Most bandits and suchlike lack a story, or share just one collective story. In their own way they let the character define themselves on how they interact. Killing them heedlessly can turn a warrior into a cold hearted Crusader, into a monster or turn them more heroic. When we come to interact with the horde of screaming bandits we choose which way we take and how we react.[/quote]

This struck a chord. I think it’s a great opportunity for character development to reflect on how your character views killing and seeing if that changes their personality, world view, etc … If a pacifist type-character ends up in combat more than expected because the player ends up liking combat, then that’s a great opportunity to have that character re-define themselves and justify why they’ve taken to the sword (“They attacked my family - I’ll always defend my family”, etc …)

And it’s an opportunity for other characters to notice things about their commrades. Does character X seem to be a bit more over-eager to kill things as of late? Does character Y seem to be turning into a remorseless, cold-hearted killer?

Good stuff! Thanks again everyone. :smiley: :smiley:

#17

(Love the mouse analogy Adam, hit it on the head really well.)

#18

[quote=“Xcerus”]I must confess the attachment to characters thing still confuses me greatly. I guess the only comparison I can draw is to a beloved character from a book dying? Even then I expect it 90% of the time. So perhaps a long running character in a tv series or fiction anthology?
[/quote]

Personally, LARP is more than a book, video game or movie in that we have the opportunity to intimately shape and experience the character’s live and collectively shape and experience the wider story. I.e.; it’s much more personal and there’s much more of an emotional investment.

I think everyone can agree an epic death makes for a great story and we can appreciate what that adds to the game.

But it’s also entirely natural to think we’d not only mourn the opportunity to play a character we’ve grown attached to, but we also empathise with all the people who have relationships with that character and will be sad at the loss of a friend. And it’s natural to be sad to close a chapter on a story if you haven’t had a chance to explore/experience as much as you’d liked to with that particular character.

But that’s like RL as well, isn’t it? :smiley:

#19

Cool thread. I always go into battle assuming someone has killing blow. And since I don’t know who it is, I have to assume it could be the person hitting me now. I find it interesting that this doesn’t seem to be the general view. Derek, given that the bodies do that whole ‘poof, vanish!’ thing described by Ignifluous, it’s really hard to get worked up about them. Maybe if they did hang around requiring burning or burying to stop stinking up the place…

In Teonn, as the (hopefully) world-saving heroes of a fantasyland, the players should be less squishy than the hordes of enemies, otherwise we’re sort of sucky heroes. :smiley: I guess maybe in some other genres or styles of larp, death could be way more of a risk. I like the idea of the ‘everyone has killing blow’ larp but I probably wouldn’t spend nearly as much time or money developing my character’s story and look.

#20

The main campaign I’ve played in was St Wolfgangs. My character had a very specific ethics about killing. In short, killing pagans was unpleasant but often necessary to protect Christians. I tried to give them the option of converting, because my character considered that part of his duty as a merciful Christian. I regarded death as likely at all times, a sacrifice my character was more than willing to make.

In general, I think that if a game is intended to involve a lot of killing, then it’s a good idea for a rationalisation to be built into the setting. This will generally involve the type of characters involved and the nature of the things being killed, as well as the genre. If that’s not in place then you’re going to get cognitive dissonance, both IC and OOC.

#21

I agree would be cool. Makes it easier for those characters uncomfortable with killing to roleplay their anger/disgust at their comrades.

As a crew member we did this in Wolfgang, and it was interesting to see how these “christian” players dealt with the dead villagers, and the dead bodies didn’t dissapear until we had been dealt with. Indeed the GMs wanted the NPC to report back, to know how it was done and by who. I recall being bemused that they gave one guy some rites but just threw me in the pile.

Sometimes its hard to phys rep the stinking bodies of the following morning, and if its not phys rep, then its way too easy for the players to forget all about them. Well, I do anyway - memory=sieve. I recall some bishops(?) in Wolfgang arriving and making some comments about the stink and most players looking a bit abashed.

I guess this comes back to how the GMs want to treat the relative importance of casual death wrt plot lines, and most people take their cue from that. Since I’ve not GMed combat game, I do wonder whether it is something consciously decided upon about the style of their game, or if the default setting just applies.

#22

[quote=“Derek”]
I’d like to see the way we deal with PC and NPC death get a little closer together though…[/quote]

Me too.

#23

[quote=“Adrexia”][quote=“Derek”]
I’d like to see the way we deal with PC and NPC death get a little closer together though…[/quote]
Me too.[/quote]

I’m one of those that find combat games exciting. The rush comes from adrenaline, pitting yourself against what I always consider dangerous foes, succeeding or not. The threat of death puts a real edge on combat and it is the real consequence of fighting for me. Most of the time my characters including Shard will not killing blow a foe, not unless they keep getting back up and attacking or they are otherwise so dangerous that leaving them alive is tactically invalid. My favourite experiences in combat is where we run a real risk of being defeated and the bodies of the defeated being over run… captured or killed.

Also on reflection, hunting bandits, is something I have done as Shard. Not for fun but certainly for profit (an IC motivation). But when the bandits start begging for mercy… well then we get to play the moral aspect… we get to see who is a cold killer and who is not.

For me as a Knightshade GM, the lowering of base HP and the inclusion of a bleeding to death rule was my desire to imprint the risk involved. (I do like that Teonn also has a bleed rule based on moving injured characters however). The results are twofold, one that players can die in ANY combat situation… knocked to 0HP and 3 minutes later you’re dead without first aid or healing. And secondly, players cannot get away of the soft combat option of beating someone up and leaving them on 0HP. I guess a third point is that solo fighting becomes really dangerous if you get cut down behind the enemy line.

Reflecting on combat, my favourite moment from the last Teonn game was being killed an hour into game by Regulus Bain. The fight was short and bloody and my opponent was my nemesis. Despite only wearing my new (and expensive) kit for an hour, I was satisfied with that end for Shard. My adrenaline was through the roof. The groundhog day repeat left me with mixed feelings, both relieved but yet also slightly robbed.

#24

To my mind at least, the issue here is less about how to react to the enemies who have just turned up to fight, without any chance of something other than violence. In that situation, I would quite expect players to fight back violently - although if people want to play out their character’s morality in that situation that’s good too :slight_smile: To me, its more about the situations where players maybe go seeking fights with perhaps an overly casual attitude to it, that seems more grounded in OOC considerations than IC.

And the use of violence by PCs against NPCs who were not posing any threat of violence, seemingly purely because the player was sick of dealing with the NPC, and felt that because they were an NPC it was alright to use violence against them, even when IC it probably shouldn’t have seemed like such a good idea. Of course whether it would have been seen as appropriate IC varies between characters.

That’s my perspective at least :stuck_out_tongue:

#25

This is quite possibly pertinent:

In the last Teonn game, Derek and I got the chance to interrogate (and generally decide the fate of) two assassins who were proven to possess killing intent and poisoned weapons. While there definitely was the temptation to kill them, I took the opportunity to attempt to convince them to turn over a new leaf and become proper residents of Cormere etc etc. Long story short it worked… it was a great scene, a great alternative to death and it really took my character in an interesting direction.

To put it simply - It is great to be faced with the option “Do I kill this bad person or do we look for another solution.” - Choices are fantasic, and choices revolving around life or death carry ALOT of weight. On the flipside - in battle with adrenalin flowing, it’s AWESOME to strike down 10bazillion bandits and be the hero too!

#26

Wait, so they weren’t all working for you?!? :wink:

#27

Well they are now!

#28

While crewing Teonn, I decided you players were a bunch of sociopaths. You’ll kill anything that stands in front of you, consequences be damned. :smiley: This point was driven home by the Woodsman Massacre incident on Sunday morning.

Having stolen anything that wasn’t nailed down on Saturday night, we crew had to find an IC reason to give it back to you on Sunday morning. So we gave it to a designated “Woodsman”, gave him a 30 second head start, then ran down the road to the Keep, screaming bloody murder about him stealing our stuff.

And you killed him. And then us.

He was clearly not with us. He was wearing a different colour. We were putting on the vaguely piratical accent from the night before, he sounded like a hobbit. He was shouting about having found the stuff while out chopping wood. We were shouting about having stolen it fair and square.

And you didn’t even WANT the stuff!! You just left it lying in the road!

Conclusion: The PC’s are all sociopaths, and your arguments about socio-economics are all null and void. :smiley:

On a serious note, all human NPC’s in 33AR now have orders to beg for their lives when on 1HP, because I love finding new ways to traumatise players. :smiley: