Light head shots

Community Larp discussion
#21

I think while in some instances head shots can be used, it requires head protection. Such as in tournament situations.
Accidental headshots are bad enough, its hard to hit only the head and not face or other sensitive cranial locations and too easy for it to go badly in so many ways. Skilled swordsman or woman or not I have no doubt that in the heat of combat with both attacker and defender dodging and weaving etc. injuries will occur… they do when its an illegal target so would only be amplified otherwise.
Something along the lines of a fully enclosed paintball mask would be sufficient but hardly historical bar for futuristic guff.
And then theres cost…

Jared

#22

This is a difficult topic as most people are either ya or nay. I am another person who wear glasses 24/7, and I have had them knocked off in the middle of a big combat. I am very shortsighted and as such it is difficult for me to find them when they are not on my nose, I did cry out break as loud as I could, and only one other person heard me enough to help me find them. It was VERY scary as I can’t drive without them, can’t see the bus numbers to find the right bus to catch to go to work without them and I have only one pair due to the expense. One miss-placed foot in a crowd of 15 people and crunch!
I know it can be safe as I have watched, but not taken part in the head blow fighting in metal weapons, but because we use a safer weapon people will take less care with the shots. I like the idea but the problem is I would not feel comfortable with it at the present time.

#23

Helmets could easily be made that would work for head blow combat with boffers.

The problem is that not all players / characters would want to wear helmets.

#24

Some of the UK players on the thread say that deliberate head shots are usually softer than accidental ones. Which makes sense.

One also says that gentle downward blows are preferred. That takes out a lot of the likelihood of hitting the face and of knocking off glasses.

#25

[quote=“Derek”]Helmets could easily be made that would work for head blow combat with boffers.

The problem is that not all players / characters would want to wear helmets.[/quote]

In Quest the Monk Character Class is not allowed to wear any armour at all and the mages are discouraged from wearing armour and rogues will avoid head armour whilst adventuring. While it could be nice to have everyone in full helms with visors it does cut down the chance of injury to head shots it greatly increases the chance of injury due to falls etc. Also it destroys some of the make up and costuming.

If one were into medieval recreation there is an arguement for head armour but I cannot see how to include it into a good fantasy campaign. If no head armour, then no head shots, q.e.d.

#26

A statement of opinion is not a proof.

This conversation reminds me of larpers in the USA who used to whine that latex weapons are not safe… despite their proven high level of safety in European larp. Same deal here.

#27

I think you missed the point. In Quest there are characters that are not allowed to wear head armour. If light head shots are allowed you will receive heavy head shots. Personal experience has shown me this over and over and over.

For example. Playing with the metal boys, no armour, light contact, no head shots, I was fighting left handed for practice, other person out or ire did a full power overhead strike to my forhead. The only reason I am still alive is I got a fairly good, lefthanded block up in time. Still got the scar to prove it.

Another example. Fighting ninja-to versus rapier and dagger. No head shots, I got a rapier through the left lens of my glasses and a cut on the eyelid. The only reason I still have eyesight is that I pulled my head back fast.

I have noticed a common trend, when people are losing they will hit harder and use banned moves.

Both of the above cases were with skilled exponents and no head shots were allowed. Just imagine what would happen with light contact and people not allowed to wear helmets. No thanks. I like my eyesight and my teeth.

#28

Are your examples with metal weapons? I’m discussing larp weapons here, not something that could cut your eyelid. Or do your larp weapons break the skin?

Leaving metal weapons to one side, you cannot say that because people sometimes hit too hard to the head with larp weapons when they’re not supposed to be hitting the head at all that proves that if light head-shots are allowed things will get worse.

In the UK they allow light head-shots and they haven’t had the problems you suggest. They’ve done the experiment of allowing light head-shots, you haven’t, so they know what can happen and you don’t. You’re just guessing.

Not QED.

#29

Real life example with boffer weapons.

It is night, you are in trees, it is raining, there is no moon the only light is coming from two flickering candles and your party is jumped by two shadows that are wearing black and have black hoods over their faces. They are moving fast, sometimes lunging and sometimes retreating. You are losing.

Are you seriously telling me that you have the skill and ability to only lightly tap them in the head while not hitting their face, their throat or any glasses they are wearing?

#30

I am interested in your definition of “experienced”.

you all know my position on this subject so i wont say any more

#31

[quote=“Alista”]It is night, you are in trees, it is raining, there is no moon the only light is coming from two flickering candles and your party is jumped by two shadows that are wearing black and have black hoods over their faces. They are moving fast, sometimes lunging and sometimes retreating. You are losing.

Are you seriously telling me that you have the skill and ability to only lightly tap them in the head while not hitting their face, their throat or any glasses they are wearing?[/quote]

I’ve seen those circumstances in a larp that did not allow head shots. There were apparently numerous head-shots regardless. At least if the head-shots had been allowed the unsafe combat would have been over faster, and we wouldn’t have anyone causing the larp to grind to a halt by yelling at people OOC about being hit in the head.

In conditions of poor visibility I would avoid aiming for the head, even if light head-shots were allowed. My suggestion for a head-shot rule is this:

  • All hits to the head count. However, please avoid hitting the head unless you believe you can land a light blow safely and other targets are not available. Straight-down attacks are recommended as they’re less likely to strike the face or glasses.
#32

It’s worth bearing in mind that the standard in the UK is to pull all blows sufficiently that only a light tap lands, and most people seem to manage that pretty well. That’s significantly different to what I’ve observed here.

#33

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]

  • All hits to the head count. However, please avoid hitting the head unless you believe you can land a light blow safely and other targets are not available. Straight-down attacks are recommended as they’re less likely to strike the face or glasses.[/quote]

This is certainly humourous, but I’m not sure if it is practical.

I’ve only written/run or participated in between 100-150 Live Role Play modules so my experience is limited. Also I have only been doing karate 16 years. Also a little metal weaponry as well. In this limited experience I have noted that if light head contact is allowed then heavy heavy contact occurs. If light body contact is allowed then heavy body contact will occur. Also this heavy contact is intentional about 1/3 of the time. If no head contact is allowed then some light contact occurs. I know that in the case of karate we are only talking people from 1st to 6th dan so they have little experience and control in fighting, but still this contact occurs. I notice in fencing for the foil, even at olympic level and with rules that state no head contact is allowed they still wear a mask.

From my limited 16 years of experience in martial arts and larp I would have to say that there is a direct link between allowing light head contact and heavy strikes to the head and often this is intentional. Thankfully most people are badly trained and do little real damage.

#34

I’m in the yes camp, I have been knocked out, badly bruised, bloody faced and put down by blows to the head. maybe I am just a little more hardy than alot of people OR stupid.
But I always ALWAYS go into a combat LARP knowing I could leave badly disfigured by some lunatic with the fibre glass rod poking through their foam padded weapon that could potentialy skewer me.
And I still go. I also keep in mind I could get dazed or knocked out or bruised accidently by a headshot. but I also go into a LARP knowing this and I PERSONALLY would try my hardest to not whinge, followed by sitting down for a couple minutes (injury permitting) and try and get back to it (provided I wasn’t knocked the hell out :stuck_out_tongue:)
Also I wear glasses frequently now, I would also go into a LARP knowing they could get broken or my eyes could be filled with glass or what not,
but with all due respect I think anyone with glasses that is going to wear them into a fekking combat content LARP has to be 100% ok with the chance that they could be up to $500 out of pocket by the end of the weekend, before they choose to go- headshot game OR not.

so considering even in a non headshot game I could be leaving in a body bag (tiny chance but the chance is there non the less just to freak you paranoid delusionals out) I know I put my put in the headshot yes camp.

#35

That is basically the rule used in the three big UK larps, which between them field thousands of participants in combat every year. I value their long and massive experience of the actual rule in use far more than your hypothetical opinion of how it might play out, regardless of your credentials.

Practice beats theory every time, and you have no extensive practice in allowing light headshots. Neither do I for that matter. In the UK they do, and they’re happy with it. I don’t see how you can ignore their practical experience of the exact thing we’re discussing. Which is not karate, in case you’ve lost track.

#36

How popular are helmets in UK larps?

I’d happily play head shot, but I’d wear a helmet and I wouldn’t hit people in the head who didn’t have a helmet regardless of the rules.

Likewise, regardless of the rule-set I play under, my number 1 priority is to defend my head. Even when it isn’t a target, I treat it like it is.

#37

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
Practice beats theory every time, and you have no extensive practice in allowing light headshots. Neither do I for that matter. In the UK they do, and they’re happy with it. I don’t see how you can ignore their practical experience of the exact thing we’re discussing. [/quote]

We have had players from these games that you speak of. Not one has asked, suggested or intimated that we should have head shots. We have been complimented and asked how they could set up our system in the UK.

Hmm, obviously you don’t much about karate and modern martial arts.

#38

[quote=“Ryan Paddy”]
Practice beats theory every time, and you have no extensive practice in allowing light headshots. Neither do I for that matter. In the UK they do, and they’re happy with it. I don’t see how you can ignore their practical experience of the exact thing we’re discussing. [/quote]

We have had players from these games that you speak of. Not one has asked, suggested or intimated that we should have head shots. We have been complimented and asked how they could set up our system in the UK.

Hmm, obviously you don’t much about karate and modern martial arts.

I note that just under half the correspondants that have voted on this thread have said that would not play if head shots were allowed. I am unable to get a vote on this issue using my computer else it would be over 50%. Why would one want to run a game when the writers know that half their potentaial audience won’t participate. I find the whole concept of head shots very exclusive. Maybe the question should be “Would you prefer to play in a campaign where head shots were legal?/Would you prefer to play in a campaign where headshots are illegal”

I know this thread is probably just a leg pull, but even so some of the logic stated here is pretty extreme and irrational.

#39

I agree with Ryan re gathering hard data vs thought experiments.

In Skirmish, we have inverted the headshot rule. You aren’t allowed to hit the head, but you may block with your head. It heals up, even beyond you HP maximum. It generally stops people whinging when they have been accidentally headshot (they are always accidental in my experience).

Now, regardless of how I voted, I want to see for myself what it would be like.

So, I propose that at the next Skirmish game that Ryan attends, we make some bright sashes. Wearers of these sashes will accept light headshots from other sash wearers only. We’ll let the sash-wearers determine if they think it was too hard (in which case it is ignored rather than heals).

We’ll gather hard data and report back our findings.

So, who’s up for being a brave sash-wearer ? I’m in, for purely scientific reasons.

#40

Yeah and when they come to Sword and Sheild to train with steel we have to train that habit OUT of them. :angry:

I have been hit in the head A Lot while larping, and I have hit others in the head, and every time it was totally unintentional and accidental, and I have had my glasses broken, and it pisses me off but I get over it they are only glasses after all.

Shit happens, we are playing at combat, you swing at, what was at first a safe target, with a safe speed/power, and suddenly that target moves or changes into something else and you dont have time to stop it, or dont know how, and there you go an accidental head shot.

but if you allow head shots that accidental trend goes away which means you can control your strike all the way through.

With all of your experience Alista you must agree that it is easier to control a blow from the start to the finish of your swing, than change it halfway through. I can do it but then i have been fighting with steel for close to ten years now, and posses a skill level that most LARPers dont.

but if i am allowed to target the head and my target drops back, looks up, or ducks into my strike, well that is quite frankly thier fault, and hopefully the black eye they recieve for thier trouble will teach them a valuable lesson, i.e; Dont use your head as a sheild, (Said with all due respect to Mike and Skirmish but this is a mind set that your rule does foster)

I can control my actions but not those of others, And I am fully on Dereks side, if we allow head shots helmets or head/face protectors are a must.