Gosh, look at that

I feel that the whole debate between vegetarinisim and non vegetarinism boils down to personal choice, Myself i eat meat, but in moderation, I prefer fish over red meat, and i am very happy with just pasta or rice.

I get annoyed by people who tell me that i am unethical because i eat meat, if you want to eat nothing but veges and non animal products then cool more power to you, but dont tell me that i am cruel, uneducated, ignorant, or unethical because i eat the odd steak, (just as an aside the venison i had for dinner tonight was heavenly)

And Tofu is the most disgusting food substitute i have ever tasted, it is like eating ceiling insulation.

eating is a pleasure, and therefore should be enjoyed, so enjoy what you find pleasureable.

It may be “eco friendly”, but it’s still not as warm as polar bear fur.

That doesn’t sound like an ethical argument to me. The only ethical argument against vegetarianism that I can imagine is that a mass shift towards vegetarianism may temporarily put people out of jobs. That seems pretty weak stacked against the many sub-headings of vegetarian ethics:

[quote=“Wikipedia”]# 5 Motivations and benefits
* 5.1 Religious and spiritual
* 5.2 Health
o 5.2.1 Nutritional
o 5.2.2 Food safety
+ 5.2.2.1 E. coli
+ 5.2.2.2 Other food scares
o 5.2.3 Medical
o 5.2.4 Physiological
* 5.3 Ethical
* 5.4 Environmental
* 5.5 Labor Conditions
* 5.6 Economical
* 5.7 Psychological
* 5.8 Cultural[/quote]

Our apparent readiness, or at least ability to consume meat would constitute a scientific argument, not ethical. And I don’t think a scientific argument against vegetarianism holds much water, or I’d be really struggling with my health. Larpers Ryan, Sridat, Ian, Malu and myself seem to be doing A-OK at sustaining life and keeping healthy - vegetarians have a tendency to be more healthy and live longer (but this may be because of their generally heightened awareness of consumption and health issues).

No biggie. I’m not saying set them all free tomorrow, but nothing would please me more than if the meat industry slowly went out of business and faded from the public memory, eventually being retold as a horror of the past like other progressive movements - slave owning, racial segregation, a man’s right to beat/rape/etc his wife.

Personally, I’m more worried about extinction of whales native to the southern oceans than some theoretical end of cows. They’re wild and have a right to exist for their own sake, not just because we’re farming them so their death can earn someone money.

Fact is, most people are quite disconnected from the horrors of routine animal death and don’t think about it at all.

I appreciate that you’d be willing to go through with the killing process every time, and that you know what animal death entails, but I don’t think your friend’s ethical challenge is for people who literally don’t care.

If every farmer were to walk off the job tomorrow and the meat was never to be eaten, that’d be a waste. But only as much of a waste as what would have happened anyway. I consider every animal bred for death->cash->dinner to be a waste. Cash->Dinner->Health could be done without all the death/ pollution/ depravity. We’re swimming in evidence.

Actually, with a nice white wine sauce, pink batts are far nicer than tofu.

So that would make Japanese whalers happy and Greenpeace unhappy.

Did you even spare a thought for the whales? Would they be happy to be farmed?

Damn straight. Also, the profits to be made from dealing P are through-the-roof, even considering the risk of going to jail. But how much of your conscience are you willing to ignore? How about when, like, eating?

Yeah, it does today. I genuinely think that in the future it will be illegal to kill animals, and it will be looked back on like today we look back on other past horrors. But in the future it will be much easier to be vegetarian, too - because everybody will be one, and everyone will know how to cook tofu. Tofu is pretty easy to prepare/cook – I dare say it’s easier (certainly safer) than meat.

Every time people tell me they tried a plain hunk of tofu and didn’t like it I can’t help but laugh (sorry). You don’t eat it like that!! Yuk! No wonder people don’t relate to vegetarians!

There are lots of tofu recipes available, you don’t eat it plain. You cook potatoes, too. Admittedly, nobody becomes vegetarian because they “like” tofu.

I think that’s a little too simplistic - eating is a necessity, it can be pleasurable, and animal death is not necessary. Eating is also:

  • A very important factor in health
  • Political
  • Social
  • Responsible
  • etc.

You’re not wrong here, Carl - nobody is, but I think there’s something to be gained in the grand scheme by eating less/no meat.

That’s my very-well-supported opinion.

where does it stop? plants feel pain too. unless you are completely vegan (ie WEAR no animal products, USE no animal products, EAT no animal products) I don’t actually think there’s an ethical leg to stand on.

I dare you to think about that and not retract it.

(Hint: something is better than nothing - or

I share this feeling, and I have vegan leanings but I am not fully vegan. Actually, I think there is an ethical leg to stand on. Plants have feelings and I should feel guilty about hurting them? Give me a break.)

I’m going to dismiss that as being unscientific. As of current there is no belief that plants have a central nervous system, the part of the brain which feels pain and the such.

Lets play spot the CNS!

Some Arctic tribes wear polar bear fur trousers because there is nothing warmer. Some BBC guy tried to travel and live with them in synthetic clothing and he almost froze to death until they gave him some funky polar bear trousers of his own. Polar bears have hollow fun and it works really well…

I try to avoid eating endangered species and I’m not particularly into things like veal. I don’t feel it is ‘evil’ or ‘bad’ to kill animals for food or clothing, providing you’re not destroying the entire species. I’ve looked at what animals die to make my life like it is and I’m pretty comfortable with what dies as a result of my direct actions.

So, I guess I don’t have to ignore much of my conscience.

Hang on… Whats the main cause of extinct creatures such as many birds and the like… hang on… I think I know this one… its us! Maybe if we didn’t farm them then cows would go extinct, I mean, after all, they don’t look like they have much going for them against another wild animal… that is, unless they are a wild cow that is.

[quote]Plants have feelings and I should feel guilty about hurting them? Give me a break.)


[/quote]

Funny, that’s pretty much word for word the way people used to feel about animals. Hence my point about where it ends.

Ah well, it’s like religion, and mac users… ain’t no one ever gonna change the mind of anyone on the other side, so I guess I’ll just go on about my business now. See you all in other threads. :smiley:

Telling me that I’m hurting plants’ feelings is clearly a last resort, especially since you no longer have a suggested action other than certain death.

I am open to having my mind changed on this. But I haven’t seen a good argument against vegetarianism yet.

There is a disease which is only transmittable by canabalism! Yay for the Discovery channel.

Oh yeah, I know it very well (yay for University education). That’s why I don’t eat human meat.

The lack of general availability is probably also a hurdle :stuck_out_tongue:

Even leading aside the very small number of scientists who don’t agree that human activity is contributing to global warming, livestock farming is crap for the environment in a mass of other ways. Grass fertaliser pollutants, deforestation, land erosion leading to desertification, and:

But environmental stuff aside, basically I’m happier not eating meat because I don’t reckon it’s fair on the animals and it’s not necessary.

I ain’t judging anyone though, I ate meat for most of my life and thought I could justify it - or I thought it didn’t need justification. I stopped temporarily on a kind of dare from my fiance, and only once I’d stopped did I realise that I couldn’t actually justify starting again. Having since read more around the topic, my only concern is that I haven’t gone far enough.

There’s some existing vege cuisine that’s very good (I had some amazing 7-coarse vege meals in Japan, though I couldn’t tell you what was in them because the waitress hardly spoke English and just said things like “made from egg” and “made from soy”) and I think the state of the art will improve if vege lifestyles become more common - the availability, range and quality of high-protein vege stuff at the supermarkets in NZ has increased steadily over the last few years. But worldwide, it seems like livestock farming is presently becoming more common not less.

The lack of general availability is probably also a hurdle :stuck_out_tongue:[/quote]

What do you mean its EVERYWHERE

I’m an omnivore, and I like to eat meat. Before I engage with the meat vs vegetarianism debate, I’d like to address some of the “facts” raised by the pro-meaties.

Like Telpe’s suggestion that we are evolved to be meat eaters. If this was the case, we would be happy to consume raw meat. This is patently not the case, instead, we have adapted flesh in order to make it edible. This is known as cooking.

Plants are not sentient. Eating plants is not akin to eating meat.

[quote=“Exquire”]Telling me that I’m hurting plants’ feelings is clearly a last resort, especially since you no longer have a suggested action other than certain death.

I am open to having my mind changed on this. But I haven’t seen a good argument against vegetarianism yet.[/quote]
It’s simple. There isn’t one. You can live a healthy and happy life without ever eating meat. No argument from this quarter, even though I am a hardcore omnivore. You have the right to be vegetarian if you want, and I’m more than pleased to support that choice when you dine at my place.

BTW, anyone who thinks tofu doesn’t taste great just doesn’t know how to cook it properly.

But, I do disagree with your assertion that, in the future, everyone will be a vegetarian. The progressive movements you list (slavery, spousal abuse etc), are different from animal exploitation in one very distinct respect: it is human vs human. And humans are very good at engineering social change. Animals are unable to mount such a campaign, and must rely on proxy human campaigns instead.

These campaigns (no animal cosmetics testing, antivivisection, save the whales, anti fur etc) rely on promoting the cruelty of the animal exploitation. But does it follow that eating meat necessarily involves cruelty ? Sure, our farming practices suck in lots of different ways, but I believe we could have an industry where animals are treated well and killed humanely.

Another reason that the future won’t be vegetarian is that people like the taste of meat. They will find ways to get, even if social sanction prevents them. For example, Tibetan Buddhists will not kill an animal for food. But they will happily engage a (non-Buddhist) butcher from a neighbouring village, whereupon they may prepare, cook and eat the meat.

What is more likely is that future generations look back on the the Age of Greed as being a symptom of capitalist aggression. They will marvel at the cruetly, shortsightedness and sheer hubris of our society.

Reminds me:

All consumers of kai moana, please take care to learn about the large-scale abuses of the fishing industry. They are destroying fragile, unexplored ecosystems with their vile method of bottom-trawling.

Also, they seem hellbent on killing off the large marine predators, a practice that would not be tolerated if it were practiced on land-based predators (lions, tigers, bears etc). Every time you open a can of tuna, you’re voting them off the planet. Just don’t do it.

If you want to have a small footprint when it comes to eating seafood, check out this seafood guide.

Personaly the reason I eat meat is the reason mike brought up, I like the flavors and textures of different meats and have never come across a “meat subtitute” that matches any meat to a satisfactory level for my tastes. Plus there are just some dishes I LOVE that you CAN’T get in a vegiterian fashion (Try finding a vegitarian hagis…its hard enough to find a good meat hagis).

Actually, I hear vegetarian haggis rocks! Though I’ve never come across it myself.

Thanks for your addition, Mike - some interesting theories there too. It’s not my assertion that society will go vege, it’s my prediction, and my expectation. I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime, but I have a tendency to underestimate the speed of social change :wink:

I don’t think your reasons why not are in tune with an imagined future - ie. presuming that other things will change along the way.

To clarify that, it’s my expectation that I will live to be 100, or at least that I will be able to reach 100 if I choose. Why? Not because I’m healthy or optimistic, but because between now and then there are seventy years of unknown medical improvements to be made.

So on that premise I’ll respond to your reasons why not:

  1. It’s not the same because they’re not humans.

In the progressive movements I listed, those things weren’t really considered human at the time either - and a lot of the time they couldn’t stick up for themselves (which is what might be at the heart of this). But the people in power still had to stop and take notice, and I think that can take place without the victims speaking out for themselves (this is, not to dis-credit them of course!) And in this case that would start with human representation (eg. vego’s etc). I hope my other case is better than this.

  1. People like the taste of meat

I think this one is stuck in the present. What if, in the future, meat is simply not available? I think this is the main reason, and for a bunch of reasons:

  1. People, governments etc. will cotton on to the fact that meat production is a Bad Thing. There’ll be legislation, popular social movements, etc. that will curb production big time.
  2. Vegetarianism is growing and continues to grow. As this happens, it becomes easier and easier to practice. So it won’t be hard.
  3. Meat will stop tasting good, and become less healthy. As toxins, diseases, etc etc etc continue to plague meat production, it just won’t be as appealing.
  4. The taste etc. of alternatives will improve with food technology etc.
  5. The alternative is not sustainable, so eventually it’ll change or we’ll all die.
  6. Factor X. It’s the future so I have no idea what’s going to happen, but I have a funny feeling that it’ll go in that direction. I think it’s called optimism.

Man, that was one sloppy post.