Cheating

Community Larp discussion
#15

One of the problems with not counting hp correctly is that it is very open to individual perception. We don’t have the benefits of video replay and referees.

The person who is struck is in the best position to judge the blow. Other people get a visual indication but only them and to a slightly lesser extent the attacker get any tactile sensation.

Talking directly to people immediately after an incident does work. I don’t believe any other sanction is needed.

If that doesn’t work, give them a strange brew :smiley:

#16

Works in a 1 HP setting, but when characters have >1 HP and they keep their HP count secret, there is no way of knowing whether someone is keeping tally or not. i.e. if they are still walking after taking 3 clear hits in a combat, is that because they cheated or because they started with 4+ HP in the first place ?

Hence my idea for IC declarative HP indicators in Multiverse.

#17

Works in a 1 HP setting, but when characters have >1 HP and they keep their HP count secret, there is no way of knowing whether someone is keeping tally or not. i.e. if they are still walking after taking 3 clear hits in a combat, is that because they cheated or because they started with 4+ HP in the first place ?

Hence my idea for IC declarative HP indicators in Multiverse.[/quote]

You’re right, but this suggestion was more in response to the “make them take a time out” suggestion.

#18

Got it. Then again, if someone is regularly suspected of being a cheat, perhaps we could arrange for a forced timeout via a well-targeted kidnapping. Which is basically a timeout, but IC. :wink:

#19

If I think someone is cheating and one day they do go down in combat, I’d not hesitate to deliver a couple of killing blows to them.

I think of it as karma.

:slight_smile:

I tend not ot kill characters if I can think of a reason to keep them alive. Like the fairies I kidnapped as Sir Nigel. We ambushed them and they took their blows fair and square. We dragged them off and tried to ransom them.

That’s not to say I suspected the players that I did killed were cheating. They were for the most part too heavy to carry or I risked discovery if I dallied.

I think a bit of “natural justice” can go a long way, providing it doesn’t go against what the character should be doing.

#20

[quote=“Derek”]If I think someone is cheating and one day they do go down in combat, I’d not hesitate to deliver a couple of killing blows to them.

I think of it as karma.

:slight_smile:[/quote]
Agreed. Even tanks like Eric Von Braun (not a cheat, BTW) can go down relatively quickly if they are attacked by enough people at one. At Solstice he got cut down in the second wave of portal nasties.

As it happens, that would be my retinue plus Matt. Good to hear they all took their blows. The outing of Sir Nigel (damn him, he gave me his word !) and the rescue mission were extremely cool to play out :slight_smile: I agree that killing needs to be motivated by more than “they were incapacitated”.

#21

If a player is suspected of not taking their blows, get a GM kitted up as an NPC to directly seek out and attack said suspected cheat. The Gm could surley determine whether or not any blows are being taken?

#22

That’s just a lot of work. And getting kidnapped is a GOOD thing. We don’t want to REWARD cheats with more attention, that’s for sure.

#23

Assuming they don’t ignore killing blows, of course.

#24

Assuming they don’t ignore killing blows, of course.[/quote]

That’s why it would be “a couple of killing blows”.

Actually, after that, I think spit roasting them and eating then as ghouls would be appropriate…

#25

Assuming they don’t ignore killing blows, of course.[/quote]

I had this problem with a display fighter (that will remain nameless) who refused to take a kill shot, so finally when it came to my turn i put him on his arse and made sure that he was going to take the kill.

He stopped being a drama queen after that

well once he could walk upright again

#26

A lurker from the UK registered on the Mordavia forums today to complain about Carl. Here’s his feedback for Mordavia:

[quote=“kevin”]I have ghosted this group for several years and have also privately conversed with several members via email. This game has looked fantastic from afar with many creative characters and players, yet I have seen a problem that has raised its head. I fear that this problem will spread to other LARPs if something is not done about this issue. This issue is the player Karl.

I have read numerous complaints about his behavior and cheating. From swearing at NPCs and GMs alike, cheating to not taking hits and ignoring GMs instructions. Apparently has been killed several times over yet will not die. This would be unacceptable in most LARP origination’s. What surprised me the most was the fact that he was allowed to come back.

Karl and those who behave like him are playing to increase their own ego. This kind of player is very dangerous, they cause annoyed NPCs to target them and hit hard which can mean aggressive emotional combat and injuries. Their cheating entourage’s other players to cheat and their behavior makes good players quit the game. Their behavior also gives LARP a bad name to those who have not player or nubes just testing the water.

Players like Karl cause more damage to LARPs than they do good and it is beyond me why he has been allowed to continue to play. Antipodean friends have complained at length about this yet seem unwilling to complain. My belief is that players in NZ have been afraid to speak up so here I speak for them.

KARL SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE IN ANY LARPS EVER.
HE IS A CHEAT.

I expect that I will now be kicked off this forum as quickly as i showed up, but I will take that as a message that problems such as this will continue to be ignored, and there for LARP in New Zealand will continue to be ruined.

KEV[/quote]

Stunning. Ironic that this should come up after Carl has suggested hurting/ humiliating cheaters. Still think so, Carl?

[quote]i put him on his arse and made sure that he was going to take the kill.
He stopped being a drama queen after that [/quote]

My fear here is like what Ryan brings up. If we all start publicly declaring “Carl’s not invited, he cheats” then it’s quite an emotional accusation and Carl is likely to take great offense.

#27

Hi guys, this is a copy of my reply on the Mordavia list.

[quote=“Stephanie”]Hi Kevin,

This is a very troll-like post to make. It’s inflammatory, effectively anonymous, and it’s designed to cause trouble with a group of people that you don’t know.

If you’re not a random stranger trying to cause trouble by targeting a vocal and argumentative member of that group, I suggest that you advise your mates to take up their issues with a GM, or at the very least have the courage to step forward and make their complaints in public.

I dislike anonymous accusations. Intensely. They’re a coward’s trick, and unmannerly to boot.

Regards,

Stephanie[/quote]
I think that a culture of cheating is a bad one to have. A culture of making anonymous pot shots at people is even worse. Just my 10 cents. (Damn inflation. :wink:)

#28

[quote=“Exquire”]
Stunning. Ironic that this should come up after Carl has suggested hurting/ humiliating cheaters. Still think so, Carl?[/quote]

Yep… i f I am guilty of cheating then have at me i deserve it, I have always thought and will always think that anyone “deliberatly cheating” should be tarred and feathered. (take note I said Deliberatly cheating)

I have NEVER deliberatly or intentionally tried to bend…break…or lawyer the rules to advance myself in the game, if i did then carlyn would have been in the game since the first one. carlyn has gone through the mill time and time again, If i was a cheat would carlyn have been kidnapped, No If I was a Cheat i woud have cheated my way out of it.

As carlyn i was in a position to really screw up the game, as captain of the guard i could have wreaked havoc, i could have turned into a power mad despot and cheated my way around as much as i wanted, but i didn’t why because i dont cheat.

hands up all those of you out there that know me… Am i a cheat?

seriously if you agree with this guy then tell me to my face, like men, not cowards.

[quote=“Exquire”]
i put him on his arse and made sure that he was going to take the kill.
He stopped being a drama queen after that [/quote]

completely different situation craig, that was in a performance setting not a LARP, and therefore totally different, and the person in question is now one of my closest freinds, who ackowledges me as a mentor in his life.

[quote=“Exquire”]
My fear here is like what Ryan brings up. If we all start publicly declaring “Carl’s not invited, he cheats” then it’s quite an emotional accusation and Carl is likely to take great offense.[/quote]

Nope not at all… I am first and foremost a man of honour, and if there was a public vote to have me removed from the LARPing community for cheating you would never hear from me again.

but only if the accusations were proved “beyond all shadow of a doubt”.

BTW Craig… thanks for spelling my name correctly, soemthing that my accuser did not have the decency or intelligence to do.

#29

Hi Carl

I don’t count other people’s hit points so I can’t “prove beyond all shadow of a doubt” that you cheat.

But in the war room NPCs generally complain at length about your cheating, especially with taking hits and finishing blows.

I think your asking for proof beyond all shadow of a doubt is an example of “rules lawyering”. There’s a popular perception that you cheat and gathering evidence can’t help you.
(Man this is uncomfortable to say!)

Asking people to testify against you is asking a lot. It’s quite threatening to people’s own image. Are you going to hate me for this? My desire for full communication outweighs my fear that you’ll put me on my arse. But maybe not with everyone.

And a “public vote” is exactly what we’d like to avoid, so don’t play it in that direction. The problem is crystalising here - if we end up “voting people off the island” then we could start a witch hunt and a culture of exclusion.

So let’s keep on-topic about how we identify and deal with cheats… or how we create rules systems that don’t have this problem.

#30

[quote=“Exquire”]

My desire for full communication outweighs my fear that you’ll put me on my arse. But maybe not with everyone.[/quote]

man i regret making that anecdote, That was during a display fight with the KD not a larp, I would never do that during a larp because that would ruin the game. so dont worry you have no reason to fear that ever happening.

[quote=“Exquire”]
So let’s keep on-topic about how we identify and deal with cheats… or how we create rules systems that don’t have this problem.[/quote]

Since i have now been branded a cheat then this is on topic, if i have been cheating for so long then why was it never brought to my attention? Ryan has talked to me in the past about dropping out of character, but this is the first time I have ever heard of people complaining about me “Cheating”

You want to know how to deal with cheats, as derek said Talk to them, no one has ever come up to me and said “hey man i did a finishing blow on you and it counted and you ignored it whats going on”

The only time I have ever received a finishing blow was at reckonings, and until i talked to Ryan about it after the game I though i was Dead and was fine with it, but Ryan made a GM decision and told me that I was not dead, and so I went with what he said.

I try my best to count my hit points and god knows they way i fight and the fights i get into it is not easy, and just remember that for the last three games carlyn had a shit load of HP, at reckonings he had over ten, that is a lot to count when you are running backwards as fast you can and fighting two people at once.

I am a good fighter everyone knows this, and that means i get singled out as a threat, and this usually results in me being in the thick of the fighting, I try my best but i am not perfect.

When ever I got into a fight I tried to keep track of my hp and as soon as i had the space I would back out and find a healer, if i was cheating would i do this, No i would keep going, every single time i have been hit by a tentacle i have gone down, And i have been incapacitated several times, ask david he has had to pull me out the jaws of death on more than one occasion.

This is nothing but an attack on me, personally, it has nothing to do with cheating, or LARPing, this is about Me, Carl. I am outspoken and vocal, i know what I am talking about and I speak straight i dont fluff around and try to sugar coat what i say with PC bullshit and tender affections in order to make myself more likable.

If you all want me gone then tell me to fuck off, dont make sniping attacks from the other side of the world, using anonymous character assasins that have never met me and probably never will.

I have a nice collection of daggers in the back and if you are thinking about adding some more, dont there aint no more room, so say it to my FUCKING FACE!!!

#31

I think the problem here with people thinking Carl cheating comes from people not letting him know in game. I also have heard from a number of people that they thought he was cheating at the last game, but it would appear that if this was the case no one approached him in game and let him know. I know this may be a hassle for the GM’s and will bring reality and out of character stuff into the game, but I believe this is the best approach.
I have seen Carl fight on many occasions with metal weapons, and I can not recall a time were he did not take or acknowledge a hit, even when the marshal did not see it.
Therefore I think if there is a general feeling that someone is cheating by the war room, the person should simply just be taken aside and told, we don’t need anything drastic.

#32

I’ll take the chance and speak up here. I’ll admit I had no idea it was possible for a player to have 10 or more hitpoints.
I was in a fight against Carl with a couple of other crew and I honestly thought we’d hit him enough times to kill him and he was on the ground so I finishing blowed him (had been ok’d to kill someone on the ground by GM). I now guess it’s entirely possible he had not run out of hitpoints. I am not a great fighter so I was more worried about counting my own hp not someone elses and again, didn’t know you could have so many! Most times crew had 2.
Carl, if you weren’t dead, then my apologies as I didn’t come forward. If this sort of thing ever happens again in a game I will ask at the time… although usually I’m dead…:slight_smile:

Perhaps the ‘secret hitpoints’ aspect of Mordavia IS a problem. Possibly if crew knew at the beginning of a game how many total hp a player had it would be more easy to figure why someone wasn’t falling down when you expected them to. After all, it’s clearly the appearence of not counting hits that is the problem.

Kara

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#33

I for one have never had reason to suspect Carl of not playing the game fairly. It is very probable that some players/crew who were not aware of his HP count being over 10 gained a incorrect impression. A shame noone mentioned things at the time, or to a GM, since then things could have been cleared up before anyone started to impugn someones honour…

Anyways, now that its been explained that (1) Carlyn had 10+ HP, (2) Ryan OKed the ignoring of the finishing blow in question, and (3) there are lots of character witnesses in his favour, can we withdraw the personal side of it, and get back to the general question. Actually, this specific issue underlines the importance of bringing things to a GMs attention ASAP since there may very well be a valid reason for something which looks dodgy to an outsider.

(Yay, I’ve been waiting for so long to use the word ‘impugn!’ I hope I spelt it right!)

Maybe people should verbally count down their HP as they take blows? Although, that will reveal just how hard someone is as soon as you land the first hit…

#34

Perhaps at previous games, but at Endgame he had 7 HP (5 Health, 2 armour).

The killing blow in question at Reckonings was a different one to the one theotherpheonix (Kara) is talking about at Endgame. Different events. I didn’t know Kara had felt that she delivered a killing blow to Carlyn at Endgame until reading her post above.

Yes please.