Community! In! Criiisiiiiis!

Community Larp discussion
#1

There have been a few comments around here that things in the Auckland larp scene aren’t going how some people might like them to. There isn’t a big fantasy campaign like Mordavia running, NZLARPS isn’t gathering members like wheat before a sickle, yada yada.

As you can probably guess from the title of this post, I don’t take this too seriously. From my perspective, there isn’t a community crisis. The community is very healthy, friendly and turning out larp after larp. New people are getting involved. Far more events are running than ever before, to the extent that it’s hard to find a week when some event or other isn’t on and clashes are getting harder to avoid.

Here’s what I think is the cause of the alarm. Mordavia has ended. A large number of the people on here were regular players or crew at Mordavia. Those people will never (ever) uniformly agree on another larp that they all like as much. Why? Not because Mordavia was the perfect larp, far from it. But because you all self-selected yourselves as people who liked Mordavia enough to stay involved in it.

Now if someone runs a SF or horror larp, there will be people from the Mordavia crowd who’ll say “that’s okay, but I really like fantasy best”. No matter what gets run, it won’t satisfy everyone in this bunch of people the same way as Mordavia did because it’s not Mordavia. What we have here is a bunch of Mordavia fans + some others. Each one of those Mordavia fans is also keen on other sorts of larp, but there’s nothing you all agree on like Mordavia, because that’s the thing that happened to bring you together.

Even if someone runs a great new fantasy campaign, some people will like it and some won’t. Some may like it better than Mordavia, but others will like it less. A big new fantasy larp is not going to “solve” this “problem” for everyone, least of all those who don’t like the new one as much as Mordavia. Because there is no problem to solve.

We are no longer a community formed around a project. We are now projects forming around a community.

That means that the underlying diversity of interests in the community is going to start shining through. We are going to disagree on things, a lot, like any healthy diverse community does. It’s normal. Just because things have changed, doesn’t mean they are worse. Just different.

As this community gathers more members who have never played Mordavia events, it will come to include many people who wouldn’t even have liked Mordavia - there are plenty of larpers out there who wouldn’t have liked it. It will become more diverse, not less.

Now, if this community starts dying off and not running events then I’ll agree that there’s an issue. But I don’t think it will happen, current signs point in the opposite direction. A lot of people here were larping long before Mordavia and will be larping long after, even if they don’t agree on what sort of larps they want to play. This community will evolve and mature, but it’s not suffering a crisis.

More people getting involved would be good to help support all the larps we are running, but that doesn’t constitute a crisis. Of course NZLARPS could do more to support larp, because any society can always do more. The fact that there’s a society doing anything at all to help larp is a big step up. It’s cool that people are getting ambitious about it, but it’s just needlessly negative to say “this is all wrong, we’re not running fast enough!”

We can be ambitious in a positive way. Let’s drop the negativity until there’s really something to worry about.

#2

So this seems largely about my growth strategy for nzLARPS, which claims in its background section that growth is the biggest issue that we face and that growth is a community crisis. I still think those things are true but it looks like the whole document’s been mis-read as a negative thing here so let me explain.

But firstly, this isn’t a negative thing at all. I’m definitely not saying that the progress we’ve made isn’t a good thing. I think we’ve got heaps of great events, I’m just saying that to keep up the pace we’re going to need more players. I’m offering a positive and practical solution to our biggest issue.

"Biggest issue"
Can anyone point me to a bigger issue? I think this single issue can solve a bunch of others too. With a bigger community we might get a bunch of hard-working and creative experts that can bring things we haven’t thought of to every event. We might get a bunch of newbies buying all the Paddywhack stock and Paddywhack might bring in very cool new stuff to replace it all. We might even be able to play an event like “No Man’s Land” which, from my understanding, wants about 100 people to really work.

"Community crisis"
This is oft mis-quoted it seems - I said “community crisis” not “community in crisis”. That looks completely different. A “community in crisis” would be if everyone had a horrible disease or refused to talk to each other etc. A “community crisis” is in reference to the way we’ve managed growth of the community, not the people in it. The same way you might say “this is a gear crisis” if we didn’t have any good costumes.

Bottom line

I’m being held back in my larp creation by the size of the community and I don’t think it’ll be very long before other people are too. Currently the “community” is more like a “social group” and it’s so small that if you go to two larps in a month you’ll probably be playing with the same people. These people are running out of leave (work), running out of money, running out of space in their dress-ups box. I know I am! We need a bigger community and that’s not negative.

#3

I wasn’t mostly responding to your growth plan Craig, it was just one of a number of messages and comments that are giving me the feeling there’s a “woe is us” feeling going down which seems way out of place to me. If I’d been responding to it I would have responded on your thread (as I did).

I’m responding to:

  • A realisation on my part that a lot of people are probably waiting for the community and larps to go back to being “like it was with Mordavia” and that it never will.

  • The recurring idea that a big fantasy campaign will solve problems that I don’t see, and people getting upset and indignant that such a larp isn’t get getting made.

  • Negative but vague comments about NZLARPS.

  • Your use of the word “crisis” about the community when the opposite seems true to me. Project growth outstripping member growth is not a crisis, it’s a creative vacuum waiting to be filled with an audience. Build it and they will come. Mordavia started with 20 people.

My use of community IN crisis was a joke, I know that wasn’t what you wrote - we discussed your turn of phrase at the committee meeting and that’s how Mike (maybe jokingly) misremembered it, not me. I don’t think there is a community crisis. Just interesting growing pains. We’ve gone from a near-monopoly to a free market. It’s not surprising that some larps will be struggling for participants in a competitive environment, but that’s not a crisis.

I agree that growth is good (it was one of the three things I stressed when running for the committee), but even if we don’t grow quickly some cool larps are going to be run and played. This would be a great time to grow, but if we don’t it’s not a crisis.

#4

Thanks Ryan for you post, I agree totally with it.
I have noticed a number of negative comments in the last couple of months (and I don’t mean people reading of Craig’s doc) and it is nice for someone to mention all the hard work that has gone into getting NZLARPS off the ground by a number of people.
We now have a good structure to support new games where the GM does not have to cough up all the money, take all the risk and can get help with all the more mundane logistics stuff.
This structure has led to a number of new games, with games being held almost every weekend, a most excellent thing.
Now the structure is working we are trying to create a community with existing larpers by trying to associate with all the larping games that we can find. This way we can promote all the games to everyone, the society has no larps that we don’t like. Some people have certain beliefs what a larp is, what a good larp is etc, but from the society perspective any larp is a good larp.

ps more people the better, any marketing ideas please let us know !!

#5

It’s been two and a half months since this thread was posted and having in that time organised/helped organise/tried to organise a number of events, I’ve come to the conclusion that there is a serious problem in the larp community with the size of the player pool.

The problem that has occured is that with the advent of nzLARPS, the creation of larp games has been heavily encouraged and a lot of creative individuals have actually taken up the help that nzLARPS offers. As a result, the Auckland larp scene has been inundated with new games.

This itself is not a problem. But what’s happened is that a player group that managed to adequately serve the three larps that were around pre-nzLARPS (Mordavia, Nightmare Circle and Skirmish) now has a choice of around 9 ongoing campaigns. That’s not including one-offs like Tryst or Couples:
In essence, the game pool has tripled. The player base has not.

As an avid player and supporter of new larps, I’m finding myself stretched very thin in trying to get to everything that I’ve been invited to. My instinct is always to say ‘yes’ to people’s games because I know that organisers need the support. At the same time, my resources (time-wise and financially) are running very short and it’s only June.

Speaking from a game organiser perspective, and faced with the daunting prospect of filling Ravenholme and St Wolfgang’s, it is incredibly stressful because I know that the majority of the ‘core group’ of larpers is in the same boat as I am - out of time and out of money. It is desperately difficult to find enough players for the games to break even. Not only that, but scheduling is hellish as you have to make sure that your game does not clash with any other major event - larp or SCA - or isn’t too close to any other event. At the stage this community is at, a loss of even five players is enough to cripple a game.

Unless we get an injection of new players, what is likely to happen is that a lot of the newly set up games will fold under the pressure of lack of players. The upcoming Ravenholme day game was almost cancelled because of a lack of numbers. It’s a sad state of affairs when you can’t get 15 or so players along to a reasonably priced evening event advertised well in advance. Is this indcative of a healthy, thriving society to you?

How can we get new players?

  • I believe we need to chase up the lapsed larpers. The ones that attended Mordavia but have not heard of the new scene we have going on. If we could gather their details and send them a friendly email/prospectus showing them what’s new, we may get a few of them back

  • Running games specifically engineered for newbies. Fantasy is a wonderful entry point to larp. Another idea would be to run glamorous murder mystery party evenings. Something like “Flight of the Hindenberg” which has a great setting and the easy-factor of pre-written characters might be a great promotional event to run.

  • Getting along to events and making contacts. Hansi talked to MOTAT who were interested in working with us - why did no one follow that up? Why do we not try and have a stronger presence at roleplaying events, especially now that we have a great cross-over with AMERICA members?

  • Invest in promotional materials. Big glossy photos to show people how incredibly awesome we look, and that they too can come play with us.

In the end it comes down to whether we want to remain a small, fringe hobby with a hundred or so odd players, in which case the society is rendered almost wholly redundant, or if we want to step up our game and create the community that the society was designed to cater for.

#6

Yep.

I’d suggest that part of the problem is the irregularity and the duration of the events. When people play a sport, they’re used to training 1-2 times a week and playing a game on the weekend. They can schedule their life around a regular commitment.

Part of the problem with larp games (and SCA, S&S and re-enactment in general) is that the best events are usually long (Friday night to Sunday aftrenoon being common. That’s fine when you’re 18-25 with no kids, but it gets harder when you have a family and more than one hobby.

I’d suggest making the games more regular and shorter would up the numbers. For example, you could decided to make the games 6-8 hours long and held every Saturday afternoon (or every second Saturday) and just alternate between genres. Something like:

09 June (Sat) Nightmare Circle
23 June (Sat) Ravenholm
01 July (Sat) St Wolfgang
15 July (Sat) Skirmish
29 July (Sat) (one off game)
11 August (Sat) Nightmare Circle
26 August (Sat) Ravenholm
etc

This way, players will know there is a game on every two weeks and they can keep it free. GM’s can decide how often they want to run games and just slot themselves in every 3 months or so. GMs are by and large a reasonmable lot, and I’m sure they can manage this.

If GM’s want to run longer games (Friday night to Sunday afternoon) they can still do that and could probably expect an influx of players on the Saturday.

If people want to run gear workshops or acting workshops, they could schedule them at the same time.

But ONE thing I think is important is the way the money is done for events (and I believe the SCA does this wrong as well). We should be giving a discount to people the first time they turn up, not after they join nzlarps. Heck, make it free the first time they turn up!

Better still, make it half price if you bring a friend.

#7

I think I might agree with the prospect of making your first event free, it is dreadfully hard to convince a skeptic to come along AND fork out upwards of $30. This’d need to be factored into costs, somehow, though.

From a game-running perspective, I’m going to be at the helm of both 2014 and Ravenholme. I am intending to turn 2014 into a large-scale game which you can bring your friends along to; if I can manage to get the numbers I need, it will serve as a good entry point for a new LARPer because costuming and character creation will be very easy compared to a fantasy game which encourages a high standard of costume, and an intimidating number of people who are medieval history buffs.

#8

I agree this is problem, but not one I know the solution to. :frowning:

I like the idea of free games for newbies, especially if they end up hiring costumes like someone at the last Ravenholme game, and happend at one of the pirates games as well.
If a GM wants to put this in the budget for any NZLARPS projects then that is of course fine.
We might put this into the stargate budget which is coming up at the next meeting.

#9

You also need an entry level or gateway game. Something like a big fanatsy campaign aimed at roleplayers and online gamers. A fantasy setting would be preferable. This should be aimed at the common player and not the elite player. Even the old rules used by AMERICA or the NERO rules would be sufficent for this game.

You can then use this as a feeder into the more refined and esoteric LRP Scene.

#10

I agree that more 1-day games would be good for the older people. I can’t do a weekend game any more, but an afternoon might be possible… if only Wolfgang had day games…?

More entry level is good, more games you can come along to and play (not monster) without lots of background work. And, of course, we need to advertise more.

On a related note, I have a 15yo Japanese girl staying with us who is into horror, and she has many similar friends. She shows an interest in larp, but which game could I take her to? None are appropriate for beginners as a one-off, the horror ones need too much background (although maybe Nightmare Circle would be possible)

#11

What exactly do you mean by ‘too much background’? I can’t have alot of sympathy for someone who isn’t willing to give their character a rudimentary back-story.

In addition, Ravenholme is a horror game which has hosted first-time LARPers at both of its events who enjoyed themselves very much.

#12

I think we’ve pinpointed two problems here:

  • Why are our larp games coming across as inaccessible? I remember this was a problem I had too, I was afraid I didn’t know enough to participate in Mordavia and later, I had the same fears with Nightmare Circle, though in both cases I found my fears were unfounded.

Ravenholme does suppose a knowledge of Victorian England but it can be worked around - you could always play a character from a foreign country.

Which brings me to the second problems -

  • Are we coming across as unapproachable for questions? Is there, say, a certain negative vibe (if you’ll pardon my new-age speak) on Diatribe that makes newbies afraid to ask us quesitons? Should we be looking at how we behave and see if we’re frightening newbies off?
#13

I think its that there is just too much to explain in some games for someone who is a larp virgin. All those special phrases, background knowledge, and so on.

One thing I tried for (and I think achieved) at the Og games was to make something that you could come along on the day and have explained to you in ten minutes. ‘Caveman costumes, no words not on this list, fall down if youre hit twice’. A couple of novices came along and worked out just fine.

#14

I think LARP is far, far less complicated than Dungeons & Dragons. Anyone with any kind of gaming experience should be able to make the jump to a LARP game by reading and comprehending the rules. You’re very unlikely to win over anyone who isn’t a gamer or geek of some kind to begin with, so I generally do not waste effort on it.

#15

By this, are you refering to complexity of rules or complexity of setting?

#16

Ravenholm has a very basic back story…

“Theres this manor weird things have happen there over history, and it retains the energies of these events and where you’ve heard tales that weird things can still happen. Your a person of note or reputation who for some reason has been invited to the manor.”

And Anna I think Steve meant both actualy i know some larps are rather complex with the terms and backstory…you just need to look your OWBN experiance for that…but if you stick at it and have people to help you ease into it i think it makes it alot easier…once again using the OWBN example having a “Sire” or “Brood mate” in the know of the history and system is IMMENSLY helpful (or at least I hope it was)

I’ve seen that people that know people that know the systems that are willing to help build characters and explain stuff fit into the game alot better…

Maybe there is a possibility in games for “Pregen’d” characters with relationships to those of others players that have agree’d to take people under their wings for those newbie that have NO idea of the system…a sort of mentorship system? Would also be nice to create some “family and freinds” for characters as well so that characters dont exist in a “social vaccum”.

#17

I think it’s very easy for new people to tie themselves to a friend’s character somehow. It happens at Ravenholme and it happened very often at Mordavia, especially with the Noble-Retinue system. GMs don’t need to be involved in that process.

Steve, I think as long as you don’t send this homestay girl to One World By Night right off the bat she shouldn’t have a difficult time easing into either of the current horror campaigns. Nightmare Circle is perhaps a little intimidating for someone as a first event due to the ambiguity of much of its system but it’s not impossible to get into. Much of the obstruction stopping someone from LARPing, I find, is mental, rather than the fault of the game or its organizers.

One solution, then, is to not just encourage new people to come along, but also remove these made-up obstructions stopping them from participating as fully as other people.

Noone who is a first-timer is going to have as much of a handle on things as all the veterans, nor should they be expected to, and we who have been in the community for awhile expect and compensate for this while they learn the ropes. Those of us inviting new people must stop behaving as if someone who can’t fully make the leap right away will never figure it out for themselves.

If someone can get a handle on a video game or a tabletop game, they have what it takes to understand and immerse themselves in a LARP game. Our systems are not incredibly complicated. I’ve written two LARP campaign settings and it takes me a good hour to write up a D&D character.

#18

I think one of key things we need to do is to create a nice friendly website with pictures, FAQ’s etc so newbies can look at cool photos and get information easily.
Any advertising we do needs to direct people to a good website, the forum is to confusing.

#19

I would also like to chime in about the comment regarding running a NERO game with the intent of drawing in new people.

http://www.neroatlanta.com/nero/

I don’t think there is a single word I can use to encompass how bad of an idea it is to use NERO at all, much less perceive it as a simple system that is easy for new people to get their heads around. The NERO rulebook is nothing short of an epic monstrosity, with multiple kinds of elves, two magic handbooks, and a separate pamphlet of rules for each of its eleven official playable races.

NERO is also responsible for the photos of furry players and the “Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt” video, both of which garner more derision towards the hobby than anything else in the history of the genre.

#20

[quote=“FauxCyclops”]I would also like to chime in about the comment regarding running a NERO game with the intent of drawing in new people.

http://www.neroatlanta.com/nero/

I don’t think there is a single word I can use to encompass how bad of an idea it is to use NERO at all, much less perceive it as a simple system that is easy for new people to get their heads around. The NERO rulebook is nothing short of an epic monstrosity, with multiple kinds of elves, two magic handbooks, and a separate pamphlet of rules for each of its eleven official playable races.

NERO is also responsible for the photos of furry players and the “Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt” video, both of which garner more derision towards the hobby than anything else in the history of the genre.[/quote]

On that we have an accord. 8)